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Thread: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

  1. #271
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Would you all shut the hell up about that damned word "force"? There is nothing in this pertaining to force.

    He is given a choice between jail and church. It is not force.
    Of course there is force. The government is forcing him to go to either church or jail. Chances are, free from any force, the dude would do neither.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    He has the chance to sit through a man talking. It is not forcing him to practice, nor to follow that religion.

    As I said before, walking into a church does not make you religious. If I walk into a food shelter, does that make me homeless?

    Your argument is ludicrous. Come up with something better and more accurate, meaning not falsely implying "force".
    How could you say there is no force? This is in fact government force. As for going to Church, I do not believe it to be a proper punishment handed out by government. Particularly if there are no secular and other religious choices. Should a Muslim be forced to go to a Christian church? And yes, it is force. The government is clearly applying force, there is a time rate of change in momentum. That's why this is a pretty sticky situation and one most likely best staid away from. I could have seen him doing community service through the Church, but not just attending. That's not proper. The government has no right or business telling us that we need to go to church. Even if we decide not to listen and still not to practice.

    It's best not to engage in Church as Punishment. It just makes too many conflicts and issues.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane
    99.9% of prison rapes take place in the minds of the non-incarcerated.
    Unfortunately, this is probably true. They're too busy watching HBO and eating better than I do.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    How could you say there is no force? This is in fact government force. As for going to Church, I do not believe it to be a proper punishment handed out by government. Particularly if there are no secular and other religious choices. Should a Muslim be forced to go to a Christian church? And yes, it is force. The government is clearly applying force, there is a time rate of change in momentum. That's why this is a pretty sticky situation and one most likely best staid away from. I could have seen him doing community service through the Church, but not just attending. That's not proper. The government has no right or business telling us that we need to go to church. Even if we decide not to listen and still not to practice.

    It's best not to engage in Church as Punishment. It just makes too many conflicts and issues.
    By that definition, anything is force. You're starting to sound like those "wage slavery" commies because they want an option beyond work or starve.

    Also, if you want to talk about force, making them go to jail is force - and it's more definitive because there is not a choice. Just like I don't want to go the commie route, I don't want to go the anarcho-capitalist route and say they shouldn't go to jail because that "force".

  4. #274
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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    By that definition, anything is force. You're starting to sound like those "wage slavery" commies because they want an option beyond work or starve.

    Also, if you want to talk about force, making them go to jail is force - and it's more definitive because there is not a choice. Just like I don't want to go the commie route, I don't want to go the anarcho-capitalist route and say they shouldn't go to jail because that "force".
    Anything that makes one deviate from their natural course is of course a force. F=dp/dt.

    I'm not saying that all force is not warranted or that we must be completely non-coercive. I think the goal in general should be to minimize coercion; but certainly one proper place for government force is sentencing of those found guilty in a court of law. I'm not saying that the government can't apply force, I'm just saying let's call a duck a duck. That's the best way to be able to identify and discuss government action.

    To be honest, jail or church I'm not the most upset with. Actually, for most non-violent crimes like this one I would say that jail is likely not needed and we can do everything through community service. Which is also a force. But I think we should be more willing to use community service for crimes that don't necessitate jail instead of throwing people into jail. The whole "go to Church" thing, it's too gray an area I think. Because there would need to be a secular option, there would need to be other religious options. Instead, the judge could have said "X amount of community service". But I do not think it proper use of government force, even in sentencing of criminals, to demand religious attendance.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    and totally irrelevant to the reason why this is a bad idea
    oh really? a judge's ruling being unConstitutional does not count as a reason why a ruling should be considered bad? I had no idea you had such little regard for our Constitution.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Well, if you're arguing that it's a soft, bullcrap excuse of punishment, I 100% agree with you. Where I throw up arms is where these people talk about "violating the Establishment clause" or "force people into their religion". That's bunk.

    I, too, think all non-violent crimes should be met with heavy fines and community service, because the benefit is two-fold - not only do you gain reparations from offenders through cash and civil service, but you don't flip the bill for three hots and a cot. My support of this stems from the financial, because "forcing" someone to go to church is a hell of a lot cheaper than housing him for a year or two. I want something that is a) cheap, and b) proportional.

    Cries of "belief force" fall on deaf ears, both morally and legally.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Well, if you're arguing that it's a soft, bullcrap excuse of punishment, I 100% agree with you. Where I throw up arms is where these people talk about "violating the Establishment clause" or "force people into their religion". That's bunk....
    explain how this does not violate the Establishment Clause.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Yes we know, the issue is about an activist judge wanting to cram Jesus down people's throats and letting criminals get away with too light a sentence.

    But hey, you are all about cramming religion down people's throats. So enjoy!
    And other alternatives ramming are the cleaning of public parks down their throats, ramming working at recycling depots down their throats, etc. The idea of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" might be offensive to some but perhaps it might actually allow these young people the chance to learn something that they might not otherwise learn cleaning public highways.

    Many criminals have said they have found religion in prison. Perhaps this will get a couple of them on the right path sooner.

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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    strawman much? I just don't see what the big deal is. all you religion haters are squealing about "freedom of religion" and how unconstitutional it is. you really don't give ****all about the fact that the concept is BS because it lets criminals off easy. you are just pissing yourselves with glee over a chance to bash religion.
    Define "religion hater".










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



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    Re: Serve Time In Jail...Or In Church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    explain how this does not violate the Establishment Clause.
    I've already enlightened you earlier. This is a judicial ruling. It's not "establishing" anything, it's not administered by Congress, and it sure as hell is not law.

    You make it sound like forcing community service in a liquor store is violating a couple amendments too.

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