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Thread: White supremacist executed for dragging death

  1. #41
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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Exactly. This is the old cum hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy that if two events happen simultaneously one must cause the other. Thanks for that.
    So then I guess we can apply the same logic to any study that says the death penalty results in less murders as well.

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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    So then I guess we can apply the same logic to any study that says the death penalty results in less murders as well.
    This is basically the reason that, when it comes to death penalty discussions, I avoid discussion of DP's claimed utilitarian purpose (that it deters crime/murder). There are other philosophical or moral reasons to oppose or support DP, but I don't believe the death penalty either discourages or encourages crime and it is thus irrelevant to the discussion.

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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    So then I guess we can apply the same logic to any study that says the death penalty results in less murders as well.
    No, not exactly. You see, the key word here is "STUDY" which implies objective research. Liblady's link was simply throwing two remotely related statistics together. There is a difference.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Nice spin. Shame on you. Fortunately, the educated know better. Most of these states have inherently higher crime rates to begin with due to the facts that they have higher poverty levels, lower education levels, more/larger urban areas, higher unemployment, or are border/coastal states which constantly deal with illegal immigration and drug trafficking.
    Nice try though, really.
    how in the world is posting a link that provides credible evidence spin? did you happen to notice that the murder rate was STILL higher after new york and new jersey abolished the death penalty?

    and please provide a link about the number of lives saved. i sure don't know how that could be calculated, becasue it's usually decades before the execution.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    I don't support state-sponsored murder and I do not want my tax dollars funding it in any way, shape or form.

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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    how in the world is posting a link that provides credible evidence spin? did you happen to notice that the murder rate was STILL higher after new york and new jersey abolished the death penalty?

    and please provide a link about the number of lives saved. i sure don't know how that could be calculated, becasue it's usually decades before the execution.
    Hashem Dezhbakhsh (Emory University Law Professor) and Joan M Shepard Shepherd (Assistant Professor at Emory School of Law). "The Deterrent Effect of Capital Punishment: Evidence from a 'Judicial Experiment'". January 11th, 2006 - We use panel data for 50 states during the 1960-2000 period to examine the deterrent effect of capital punishment, using the moratorium as a 'judicial experiment.' We compare murder rates immediately before and after changes in states' death penalty laws, drawing on cross-state variations in the timing and duration of the moratorium. The regression analysis supplementing the before-and-after comparisons disentangles the effect of lifting the moratorium on murder from the effect of actual executions on murder. Results suggest that capital punishment has a deterrent effect, and that executions have a distinct effect which compounds the deterrent effect of merely (re)instating the death penalty. The finding is robust across 96 regression models.


    Hashem Dezhbaksh, Emory Law. "Does Capital Punishment Have a Deterrent Effect? New Evidence from Postmoratorium Panel Data". 2003 - Our results suggest that capital punishment has a strong deterrent effect; each execution results, on average, in eighteen fewer murders—with a margin of error of plus or minus ten.


    Isaac Ehrlich, "Capital Punishment and Deterrence: Some Further Thoughts and Additional Evidence", the Journal of Political Economy, 1977 - "Investigation of the deterrent effect of capital punishment has implications far beyond the propriety of execution as punishment since it concerns the general question of offenders' responsiveness to incentives. This study challenges popular allegations by earlier researchers denying the deterrence hypothesis. The empirical analysis based on cross-sectional data from the U.S. corroborates my earlier analysis of the time series. Findings indicate a substantial deterrent effect of punishment on murder and related violent crimes and support the economic and econometric models used in investigations of other crimes."


    Joanna Shepard, Emory University Law Professor. "Capital Punishment and the Deterrence of Crime", written testimony for the House Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security. 21 Apr. 2004 - "Recent research on the relationship between capital punishment and crime has created a strong consensus among economists that capital punishment deters crime. Early studies from the 1970s and 1980s reached conflicting results. However, recent studies have exploited better data and more sophisticated statistical techniques. The modern studies have consistently shown that capital punishment has a strong deterrent effect, with each execution deterring between 3 and 18 murders. This is true even for crimes that might seem not to be deterrable, such as crimes of passion."


    John McAdams, Marquette University Department of Political Science. "On deterrence". 2007 - If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."

    These and there are so many more, so easy to find. Have you discovered Google yet.


    Argument: Capital punishment has a deterrent effect on criminal activities - Debatepedia
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 09-22-11 at 12:04 PM.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Nice spin. Shame on you. Fortunately, the educated know better. Most of these states have inherently higher crime rates to begin with due to the facts that they have higher poverty levels, lower education levels, more/larger urban areas, higher unemployment, or are border/coastal states which constantly deal with illegal immigration and drug trafficking.
    Nice try though, really.
    and here's a state by state link. are you really attempting to say oklahoma/louisiana are border states, have more urban areas, or have the highest unemployment? should we look at state by states number? your arguments don't hold water.

    The Death Penalty and Deterrence | Amnesty International USA

    List of U.S. states by unemployment rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    No, not exactly. You see, the key word here is "STUDY" which implies objective research. Liblady's link was simply throwing two remotely related statistics together. There is a difference.
    Meh, there a plenty of studies that disagree with your conclusions, so whatever on that "objective" research.

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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    We are back to the living in fear thing. I don't worry that on some occasion after 20, 30, 40 years some murderer may get out. Sometimes justice has costs. One of those in our current system where we declare it is better to let the guilty go than imprison the innocent is that we might let some one go who will turn around and commit more crimes. That is a worthwhile price to my mind.
    You have a strange notion of justice. Allowing the guilty to just walk is not justice. And I'm the one who stated that punishment for the sake of punishment is a viable consideration so I am not making the "public safety" argument (the one you believe to be rooted in fear).

    If the number was 1 it would be too big if the death penalty is immoral. You remind me of the new breed of Holocaust denier. "Well, the Nazi's only killed a couple million jews, so it's not so bad". Once you cross the line, you are guilty. Crossing it again does not change the fact you are guilty.
    Don't even really know how to respond to being compared to Holocaust deniers except that I believe the comparison to be, well, bullsh(i)t and likely geared just to put me on the defensive. Total cheap shot, Redress.

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    Re: White supremacist executed for dragging death

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    and here's a state by state link. are you really attempting to say oklahoma/louisiana are border states, have more urban areas, or have the highest unemployment? should we look at state by states number? your arguments don't hold water.

    The Death Penalty and Deterrence | Amnesty International USA

    List of U.S. states by unemployment rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I live next door to Louisiana, and yes, it is considered a border state and has a large number of Mexican immigrants (both legal and illegal) since Hurricane Katrina, high poverty levels , even higher school dropout rates, so.....yes, it "fits the bill". As far as Oklahoma, it has one of the largest populations of Native Americans (which experience extremely high poverty and unemployment rates - as an ethnic group) and has one of the higher rates for alcoholism (ranks #11 in alcohol related deaths - see link below) in the US. So, again, it too "fits the bill." Sorry.

    By the way, Louisiana has the 2nd highest poverty level, while Oklahoma has the 11th highest.

    Alcohol related traffic fatalities (per capita) statistics - states compared - StateMaster Health
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 09-22-11 at 12:45 PM.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

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