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Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

The Barbarian said:
Why do you liberals insist on continuing with this, it could have been much worse theory? There is no proof to back up what you are saying.
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Liberalism isn't based on facts, its based on feelings.
 
AdamT said:
First of all, this isn't a "liberal" thing. The main person behind TARP was Hank Paulson, a life-long Republican and former CEO of Goldman Sachs.
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I did not really know much about him but a quick look at Wikipedia indicates that he is more left than center. He looks like a very-big-government guy. Many liberal Republicans suffer from this same malady. So I tend to believe it really is a liberal thing.
 
AdamT said:
There are specific requirements for Chapter 11 that GM and Chrysler couldn't meet. They were too far gone. Again, there was ZERO chance that they would be reorganized without the government bailout. They were weeks away from going away for good.
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That would have been best. Government Motors still cannot stand on its own. It requires government subsidies in the form of major tax breaks to customers to buy the cars they otherwise would not want. I will never knowingly buy a product from Government Motors. In fact, I bought a Ford. Just because.
 
Misterveritis said:
I did not really know much about him but a quick look at Wikipedia indicates that he is more left than center. He looks like a very-big-government guy. Many liberal Republicans suffer from this same malady. So I tend to believe it really is a liberal thing.
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It doesn't matter whether it is considered to be "liberal" or not. The fact of the matter is, we have a capitalist system in the US, and it seems to work pretty well. If GM had become uncompetitive with the other makers, then it should have been reorganized, not taken over by the government.

How is it that Ford managed to stay in business without government bailouts?

and what is it that happened to Chrysler in the end? Wasn't it bought out by a European automaker?
 
washunut said:
I have heard this argument many times. What do you think would have happened if GM and Chrysler went under and why would it have been different than when the airlines go into bankruptcy. Do you really think that the country was about to stop buying cars? The large number of jobs you mention is much larger than all of the employees at the two companies, it assumes that ALL of the workers at ALL of the companies supplying parts into those two would also go under, so the assumption would have to be Americans would stop buying cars. This argument never seemed credible. Would there have been job losses yes as there were anyway.
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No, we wouldn't stop buying cars

We'd stop buying cars that were made by american corporations, and the profits would go overseas.

And the companies that supply parts for the american car corps would go under and be replaced with foreign companies that would supply the car manufacturers, so additional profits and jobs would go overseas.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It doesn't matter whether it is considered to be "liberal" or not. The fact of the matter is, we have a capitalist system in the US, and it seems to work pretty well. If GM had become uncompetitive with the other makers, then it should have been reorganized, not taken over by the government.

How is it that Ford managed to stay in business without government bailouts?

and what is it that happened to Chrysler in the end? Wasn't it bought out by a European automaker?
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I don't have answers for your questions. But from your statements it sounds like we agree about what should have happened.
 
Dittohead not! said:
If the debt were, say, a trillion dollars, then an increase of 50% might be sustainable. That increase would add 500 b to the debt.

Since the debt is actually 15 trillion and counting, even 7% is still over a trillion dollars, or ten grand each for a hundred million taxpayers. Are you willing to put another ten grand on your MasterCard?



Hey, imagine that, 7% of 15 is actually more than 50% of 1.

Currently, the government is at least beginning to talk about the debt. They aren't proposing any realistic plan to do anything about it, talking about 4 trillion over 10 years vs. 3 trillion over ten years. Even 4 trillion over ten years would result in a debt of 25 trillion, or a quarter million each for a hundred million taxpayers.

Don't get me wrong. This is nothing new, and isn't all on Obama and his Democratic Congress. Putting two wars on the national MasterCard while cutting taxes didn't help.

Would an additional stimulus actually bring the economy back? If so, then increased revenues would pay it back. If not, we'd be left with an unsustainable debt.

Come to think of it, we already have an unsustainable debt anyway, so what the heck?

Hey, Nero, where did you put that fiddle?
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What happens if we stay where we are and do nothing?
Debt will still rise, the economy will still be spiraling down.

When unemployment goes up again and the cost of living goes up again,not only the unemployed on Main street will suffer.
The American corporations will be in need of a lot of warehouses for overstocked inventory and a lotof red ink.

The old ride the credit card routine is coming to an end for the American people

So far a lot of people have critised the American people for living beyond their means .
Lets see how good the sales are when the American people start living within their needs, and buying only what they need.:peace
 
presluc said:
What happens if we stay where we are and do nothing?
Debt will still rise, the economy will still be spiraling down.

When unemployment goes up again and the cost of living goes up again,not only the unemployed on Main street will suffer.
The American corporations will be in need of a lot of warehouses for overstocked inventory and a lotof red ink.

The old ride the credit card routine is coming to an end for the American people

So far a lot of people have critised the American people for living beyond their means .
Lets see how good the sales are when the American people start living within their needs, and buying only what they need.:peace
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Living beyond our means, putting everything on the credit card, then paying minimums didn't work out so well, did it? Lots of people used the equity in their houses to pay off those credit cards, then kept living beyond their means. We know the results of that sort of economy.

But, how is it better to live on our collective MasterCard by allowing the federal government to continue to spend beyond its means? Are we just trading individual debt for collective debt? I like the individual plan better, as I was able to opt out and only buy what I needed all along. There is no way to opt out of the federal debt that I know of.
 
washunut said:
I have heard this argument many times. What do you think would have happened if GM and Chrysler went under and why would it have been different than when the airlines go into bankruptcy. Do you really think that the country was about to stop buying cars? The large number of jobs you mention is much larger than all of the employees at the two companies, it assumes that ALL of the workers at ALL of the companies supplying parts into those two would also go under, so the assumption would have to be Americans would stop buying cars. This argument never seemed credible. Would there have been job losses yes as there were anyway.
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American manufacturing labor for auto parts left America with outsourceing.
As far as Americans stop buying car scenerio?
They might stop buying American cars but they have already done that in a lot of areas.
#1 car sales Japan
#1 used car sales Japan
Japan has a strong labor and management Manufacturing base.
China has a stromg managementand manufacturing base.
America does not
Which country has had the most progress in the past 11 years?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Living beyond our means, putting everything on the credit card, then paying minimums didn't work out so well, did it? Lots of people used the equity in their houses to pay off those credit cards, then kept living beyond their means. We know the results of that sort of economy.

But, how is it better to live on our collective MasterCard by allowing the federal government to continue to spend beyond its means? Are we just trading individual debt for collective debt? I like the individual plan better, as I was able to opt out and only buy what I needed all along. There is no way to opt out of the federal debt that I know of.
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If the government spends money to bailout corporations that might make it nobody does nothing
If the government spends money on putting people back to work that might work, people got a problem with that?
Look at it this way, at least no unemployed person will get a bonus for being unemployed and going broke.
 
presluc said:
If the government spends money on putting people back to work that might work, people got a problem with that?
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Yes. The government has no business "putting people back to work." That is not what government is for.
 
Misterveritis said:
Yes. The government has no business "putting people back to work." That is not what government is for.
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So whose responsibility is it to improve the electrical grid, repair the interstate system, defend the country? Or do we just get robots to do that?
 
presluc said:
American manufacturing labor for auto parts left America with outsourceing.
As far as Americans stop buying car scenerio?
They might stop buying American cars but they have already done that in a lot of areas.
#1 car sales Japan
#1 used car sales Japan
Japan has a strong labor and management Manufacturing base.
China has a stromg managementand manufacturing base.
America does not
Which country has had the most progress in the past 11 years?
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A lot of those Japanese cars are made in America. My Honda was built in Marysville, Ohio. My Chevy Impala, on the other hand, was built in Canada. It was a piece of ***, too, not because it was built in Canada, but because it was poorly designed and had multiple mechanical failures.

Somewhere, I read that America produces 20 lawyers for every engineer, while Japan produces 20 engineers for every lawyer. I don't know how accurate that is, but it makes a lot of sense. Who wants a car designed by lawyers?
 
FilmFestGuy said:
So whose responsibility is it to improve the electrical grid, repair the interstate system, defend the country? Or do we just get robots to do that?
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I do not believe you actually know the difference, do you?
 
Misterveritis said:
I do not believe you actually know the difference, do you?
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The difference between what two elements?

But even if government simply buys planes from Boeing, the government is putting the people who build those planes to work; same as government would be putting construction people to work if it hires private contractors to build and repair bridges.

If you cut taxes and shrink government you are cutting jobs. While private sector jobs have been created lately (not as strong as it should be), those gains have been offset by massive layoffs in state and local governments.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
The difference between what two elements?

But even if government simply buys planes from Boeing, the government is putting the people who build those planes to work; same as government would be putting construction people to work if it hires private contractors to build and repair bridges.

If you cut taxes and shrink government you are cutting jobs. While private sector jobs have been created lately (not as strong as it should be), those gains have been offset by massive layoffs in state and local governments.
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The difference between contracting for a service and creating government jobs for starters.

It can get muddy at the local level where governments do run some monopolies.
I do not believe you have any familiarity with the history of the US. Never mind. It is not worth my time to try to get through to you. I believe you are beyond repair.
 
Misterveritis said:
The difference between contracting for a service and creating government jobs for starters.

It can get muddy at the local level where governments do run some monopolies.
I do not believe you have any familiarity with the history of the US. Never mind. It is not worth my time to try to get through to you. I believe you are beyond repair.
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No. It's not worth my time, because you clearly get all your information from talk radio and Fox News and thus - like many "conservatives" - you are immune to facts because they don't fit your propaganda-created worldview.

If someone works for government, they have a job. If you lay them off, they are now unemployed, therefore - you have eliminated a job. If you cut government, you are cutting jobs. If the government stops buying planes from Boeing, people who work for Boeing will not have jobs.

These are simple and obvious facts. You can argue the efficiency of government spending, but when government hires people or contracts with people, jobs are created. It's really not that hard to understand.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
If someone works for government, they have a job. If you lay them off, they are now unemployed, therefore - you have eliminated a job.
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If someone works for the government they have a government job. We do not want more government workers. We want less government workers. If the government buys a good or a service the government did not create a job or put people back to work. It bought a good or service. The company providing the good or service created the job. Not the government.
If you have a dollar in your pocket and you decide to buy something you are not creating jobs. You are buying something. The company that created the thing you bought created the job.
 
presluc said:
American manufacturing labor for auto parts left America with outsourceing.
As far as Americans stop buying car scenerio?
They might stop buying American cars but they have already done that in a lot of areas.
#1 car sales Japan
#1 used car sales Japan
Japan has a strong labor and management Manufacturing base.
China has a stromg managementand manufacturing base.
America does not
Which country has had the most progress in the past 11 years?
Click to expand...

GM recently surpassed Toyota as the world's largest auto seller. GM, Chrysler, and Ford are all doing pretty well.

South Korea is the real tiger in the auto world, with Kia and Hyundai rapidly improving both quality and sales.
 
Misterveritis said:
If someone works for the government they have a government job. We do not want more government workers. We want less government workers. If the government buys a good or a service the government did not create a job or put people back to work. It bought a good or service. The company providing the good or service created the job. Not the government.
If you have a dollar in your pocket and you decide to buy something you are not creating jobs. You are buying something. The company that created the thing you bought created the job.
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There is little practical difference if the private contractor gets all or most of its work from the government.
 
AdamT said:
There is little practical difference if the private contractor gets all or most of its work from the government.
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yeah there is, if its services are not needed the tax payers aren't on the hook
 
TurtleDude said:
yeah there is, if its services are not needed the tax payers aren't on the hook
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So they go out of business, and the next time those services are needed the taxpayers are on the hook to train another contractor to do the same work ... while paying for the defunct contractor's employees' unemployment/welfare/retraining.
 
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Misterveritis said:
Yes. The government has no business "putting people back to work." That is not what government is for.
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Even the rightwing republicans don't believe that


Kansas governor: State should invest in livestock

Kansas needs to invest hundreds of millions of dollars more in its beef, dairy and pork industries in order to give the state a larger share of U.S. animal agriculture production, Gov. Sam Brownback said.
"I just want to see us put that on steroids and grow it," Brownback said Wednesday during an economic development summit in Garden City.
Kansas governor: State should invest in livestock - BusinessWeek
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Kansas governor: State should invest in livestock - BusinessWeek
Even the rightwing republicans believe in Big Govt and don't believe in the "free market"
 
Misterveritis said:
Yes. The government has no business "putting people back to work." That is not what government is for.
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If I don't loan a person money their business is their business.
If I loan a person money their bussiness becomes my business.

The government bailed out corporations .
The corporations business becomes the government's business.
If corporations don't want government in their business leave government alone , stop asking for bailouts, stop asking for grants, stop asking for tax cuts.
If government could start setting up factories and building products made by American workers in America for American workers they could not only compete with private corporations they could make a profit while private corporations sales would go down..

Tax revenue is needed by the government hireing American workers that pay taxes will get more tax revenue.
Cheap foriegn workers do not pay American taxes.
American workers pay American taxes.
 
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