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Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

debt that would have to be paid back through inflation, as no one is going to be willing to cut spending and raise taxes to the point of being able to pay it back any other way. Is it worth it?

I don't accept your premise. If we had doubled the size of the stimulus it would have increased our debt by less than 7%. Either way it is going to take a long time time to pay down. We did it after the GD and WWII. I don't see why we can't do it again. It wasn't 10 years ago that we were in a position to start paying down the debt. Of course it didn't work out that way....
 
I don't accept your premise. If we had doubled the size of the stimulus it would have increased our debt by less than 7%. Either way it is going to take a long time time to pay down. We did it after the GD and WWII. I don't see why we can't do it again. It wasn't 10 years ago that we were in a position to start paying down the debt. Of course it didn't work out that way....

Why is it that you liberals always want to focus on these silly percentages like they are some shield from the reality of the actual situation? 7% of trillions of dollars is still a big deal.
 
And what are those tax cuts going for? Seems to make sense that if you pay the most, you should probably get the most cuts. We already have way too many Americans that not only pay zero income tax, but actually get free money from the government they never paid in the first place (Making Work Pay, EIC, etc.).

It also makes sense to grant cuts to the section of the population providing employment to the middle class. The reason the middle class can pay taxes is because the rich allow them an opportunity to.

Sorry to cut into your post disneydude, but something caught my eye in this post, the last line.

"The reason the middle class can pay taxes is because the rich allow them the opportunity to".

I have a response to that ,
The reason the rich remain rich is because the middle class buy their products..
Also if the rich don't give the middle class the opportunity to pay taxes, then who will pay taxes?
The unemployed, the working poor, perhaps the upper middle class?:peace
 
Why is it that you liberals always want to focus on these silly percentages like they are some shield from the reality of the actual situation? 7% of trillions of dollars is still a big deal.

Why are conservatives afraid of percentages and taking a rational, big-picture view of the world? Maybe you take some weird comfort from screaming, "ARRGH!! DEFICIT!!!!" -- but it doesn't help solve the problem.
 
Both sides are doing it. Just say that, no matter who is in power, I have a bone to pick with Washington......

300278_2313149401941_1645593231_2355030_1584273223_n.jpg

I am an independent also and pretty much feel the same way.
American workers need more jobs to revive this economy and raise tax revenue to avoid tax increaces in the future:peace.
 
Why is it that you liberals always want to focus on these silly percentages like they are some shield from the reality of the actual situation? 7% of trillions of dollars is still a big deal.

But when it comes to things like NPR conservatives are all about cutting it in the name of deficit reduction.
 
"Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue"

Read: "Obama to cut economic growth by $1.5 trillion."
 
Why is it that you liberals always want to focus on these silly percentages like they are some shield from the reality of the actual situation? 7% of trillions of dollars is still a big deal.

I'm not a liberal, I'm an Independent, and yes I focus on %.

Especially when 9+% are unemployed, and when 43% of the unemployed haven't worked in 6+ months.

The stock market % wise went down 3 times in August that's Dow, Nasdaq, and S&P and again in September.
Then there's the % of exports compared to the % of imports.
So in my humble opinion these percentages are not as silly as you believe.:peace
 
I'm not a liberal, I'm an Independent, and yes I focus on %.

Especially when 9+% are unemployed, and when 43% of the unemployed haven't worked in 6+ months.

The stock market % wise went down 3 times in August that's Dow, Nasdaq, and S&P and again in September.
Then there's the % of exports compared to the % of imports.
So in my humble opinion these percentages are not as silly as you believe.:peace

Percentage matters only when it is properly understood and considered. It is way too commonly used to try and negate the actual significance of a situation. "Only 7%..." wouldn't be such an easy thing to brush off when you consider it may still add up to billions of dollars.
 
Why are conservatives afraid of percentages and taking a rational, big-picture view of the world? Maybe you take some weird comfort from screaming, "ARRGH!! DEFICIT!!!!" -- but it doesn't help solve the problem.

What a meaningless comment... Who said anything about being afraid? It is about not using percentages to improperly place value on something. You don't even have any real examples to back this rubbish up, you are just simply relying on your very limited understanding of what is going on. Trying to reduce spending is a very efficient way to reduce a deficit.... I don't fully understand why you are so opposed to not being over taxed for things that really just don't need to be funded with public money.
 
Percentage matters only when it is properly understood and considered. It is way too commonly used to try and negate the actual significance of a situation. "Only 7%..." wouldn't be such an easy thing to brush off when you consider it may still add up to billions of dollars.
9+% ADDS UP TO BILLIONS OF DOLLARS
43% of unemployed for 6 months add up to billions of dollars
Significance of the situation is simple not hard to negate at all.
Billions of tax dollars and money circulation unatainable because there is no jobs.
Billions of dollars going out through unemployment, social services, government houseing, foodstamps, health care ect
The % coming in from the unemployed or out of work????:peace
 
9+% ADDS UP TO BILLIONS OF DOLLARS
43% of unemployed for 6 months add up to billions of dollars
Significance of the situation is simple not hard to negate at all.
Billions of tax dollars and money circulation unatainable because there is no jobs.
Billions of dollars going out through unemployment, social services, government houseing, foodstamps, health care ect
The % coming in from the unemployed or out of work????:peace

Right, now maybe you should go back to where my post originated so you understand the context of what I was saying.
 
What a meaningless comment... Who said anything about being afraid? It is about not using percentages to improperly place value on something. You don't even have any real examples to back this rubbish up, you are just simply relying on your very limited understanding of what is going on. Trying to reduce spending is a very efficient way to reduce a deficit.... I don't fully understand why you are so opposed to not being over taxed for things that really just don't need to be funded with public money.

I have no idea what you're going on about. Looking at the percentage in this case is just one way of understanding how the amount relates to the overall debt. It in no way disquises or minimizes the fact that $1 trillion is $1 trillion. But to understand it's relevance -- it's RELATIVE magnitude -- you have to look at it in relation to the total debt. It seems that conservatives fail in this respect on a regular basis. Consequently they spend an inordinate amount of time and energy carping about things that are virtually inconsequential from a deficit persepctive, like NPR and Planned Parenthood.

No area of government spending should go unexamined but it's just common sense to prioritize the biggest ticket items. Should we waste our time bellyaching about something that constitutes 0.03% of federal spending? Of course not. But that's what you end up doing if you fail to look at the percentages.

Does that clear it up for you?
 
Right, now maybe you should go back to where my post originated so you understand the context of what I was saying.

Ok I went back you said in your post "only 7% wouldn't be such an easy thing to brush off when you consider it may add up to billions of dollars"
That is your statement is it not copied from your post?

Keywords "may add up to billions of dollars",
THIS CAN BE STOPPED
My post 9+% unemployment , 43% havent worked in 6 months "DOES ADD UP TO BILLIONS OF DOLLARS"
THIS IS GETTING WORCE

Now I'm not here to play the blame game; Republicans, Democrats Tea Party. Liberals, Libertarians,even Independent and Centralist corporations or government regulations ,right wing left wing.
Bottom line somebody, if not all screwed up.

Now I have seen negoiations with almost every nation in the world with America at one time or another for trade or oil prices or peace or foriegn aid.
I have yet to see labor negotiations between corporate business and government to get jobs back in America to jump start a bad economy and get more money in circulation and more tax revenue :peace
 
If the debt were, say, a trillion dollars, then an increase of 50% might be sustainable. That increase would add 500 b to the debt.

Since the debt is actually 15 trillion and counting, even 7% is still over a trillion dollars, or ten grand each for a hundred million taxpayers. Are you willing to put another ten grand on your MasterCard?



Hey, imagine that, 7% of 15 is actually more than 50% of 1.

Currently, the government is at least beginning to talk about the debt. They aren't proposing any realistic plan to do anything about it, talking about 4 trillion over 10 years vs. 3 trillion over ten years. Even 4 trillion over ten years would result in a debt of 25 trillion, or a quarter million each for a hundred million taxpayers.

Don't get me wrong. This is nothing new, and isn't all on Obama and his Democratic Congress. Putting two wars on the national MasterCard while cutting taxes didn't help.

Would an additional stimulus actually bring the economy back? If so, then increased revenues would pay it back. If not, we'd be left with an unsustainable debt.

Come to think of it, we already have an unsustainable debt anyway, so what the heck?

Hey, Nero, where did you put that fiddle?
 
What I think you're missing is that turning around the economy ... SPENDING to turn around the economy ... can result in lower deficits at the end of the day than NOT spending and consequently suffering years and years of economic stagnation. For example, we spent close to a trillion dollars bailing out the banking industry. Do you think our debt would be lower if we hadn't spent that money?
 
What I think you're missing is that turning around the economy ... SPENDING to turn around the economy ... can result in lower deficits at the end of the day than NOT spending and consequently suffering years and years of economic stagnation. For example, we spent close to a trillion dollars bailing out the banking industry. Do you think our debt would be lower if we hadn't spent that money?

Absolutely.

Bailing out the banking industry and making those multi million dollar bonuses possible for people whose poor judgement resulted in an economic recession was a travesty, IMO. Buying GM and trying to remake it was another boneheaded move towards socialism. Do we miss Studebaker? DeSoto?

The worst error was in not regulating the mortgage industry to begin with, however.

Economic growth is the job of the private sector. The job of government is to regulate the private sector and see to it that they don't do things like selling subprime mortgages to people who can't afford to pay them back.

and similar things, of course.
 
Absolutely.

Bailing out the banking industry and making those multi million dollar bonuses possible for people whose poor judgement resulted in an economic recession was a travesty, IMO. Buying GM and trying to remake it was another boneheaded move towards socialism. Do we miss Studebaker? DeSoto?

The worst error was in not regulating the mortgage industry to begin with, however.

Economic growth is the job of the private sector. The job of government is to regulate the private sector and see to it that they don't do things like selling subprime mortgages to people who can't afford to pay them back.

and similar things, of course.

TARP was an unfortunate necessity, but it was absolutely a necessity. Without it the entire banking system would have collapsed and the stock market and private employment with it. We would be in far far worse shape had we not done it. Likewise with GM and Chrysler, an unfortunate situation, but without the bailouts we lose over a million good-paying jobs and permanently cripple the American auto industry. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.
 
TARP was an unfortunate necessity, but it was absolutely a necessity. Without it the entire banking system would have collapsed and the stock market and private employment with it. We would be in far far worse shape had we not done it. Likewise with GM and Chrysler, an unfortunate situation, but without the bailouts we lose over a million good-paying jobs and permanently cripple the American auto industry. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

Why do you liberals insist on continuing with this, it could have been much worse theory? There is no proof to back up what you are saying.

For example, tell Me how 8 of the biggest banks taking this money, that were in such deep trouble, managed to repay these loans with interest of about $4 billion in under a year? Thats a quick turnaround for any company that was in serious trouble wouldn't you agree? Even more so when you take into consideration the shape of our economy.
I have no doubt that you were one of the liberals that were squealing like a pig over the huge bonuses paid to these CEO's that received bail out money, but what you fail to understand is most of those bonuses are performance based bonuses, as per their contract. Simply put, these banks were making money, the amount of money being made was what determined their bonuses.

So you don't find it troubling that 8 of the biggest banks in the US paid back their so called loans in under a year with interest, made enough money to pay these bonuses to the CEO's , in the economy we had from late in 2008 to late 2009 ? Maybe it's just me, but makes me wonder just how much trouble those banks were in to begin with.

As for the car companies, you are going under the assumption, that if the government would have stayed out of it altogether that they would have gone out of business, and there is no proof that such a thing would have happened. They could just as easily gone into bankruptcy without government interference, and come out of it even stronger then what they are now, because it would have allowed them to get out from under some of the contracts that are still killing them. You just have no reliable way of saying that it would have been worse if the government would have stayed out it.
 
Why do you liberals insist on continuing with this, it could have been much worse theory? There is no proof to back up what you are saying.

For example, tell Me how 8 of the biggest banks taking this money, that were in such deep trouble, managed to repay these loans with interest of about $4 billion in under a year? Thats a quick turnaround for any company that was in serious trouble wouldn't you agree? Even more so when you take into consideration the shape of our economy.
I have no doubt that you were one of the liberals that were squealing like a pig over the huge bonuses paid to these CEO's that received bail out money, but what you fail to understand is most of those bonuses are performance based bonuses, as per their contract. Simply put, these banks were making money, the amount of money being made was what determined their bonuses.

So you don't find it troubling that 8 of the biggest banks in the US paid back their so called loans in under a year with interest, made enough money to pay these bonuses to the CEO's , in the economy we had from late in 2008 to late 2009 ? Maybe it's just me, but makes me wonder just how much trouble those banks were in to begin with.

As for the car companies, you are going under the assumption, that if the government would have stayed out of it altogether that they would have gone out of business, and there is no proof that such a thing would have happened. They could just as easily gone into bankruptcy without government interference, and come out of it even stronger then what they are now, because it would have allowed them to get out from under some of the contracts that are still killing them. You just have no reliable way of saying that it would have been worse if the government would have stayed out it.

First of all, this isn't a "liberal" thing. The main person behind TARP was Hank Paulson, a life-long Republican and former CEO of Goldman Sachs.

Or ask Paul Ryan:

"TARP. I’ll take one at a time. I believe we were on the cusp of a deflationary spiral which would have created a Depression. I think that’s probably pretty likely. If we would have allowed that to happen, I think we would have had a big government agenda sweeping through this country so fast that we wouldn’t have recovered from it. So in order to prevent a Depression and a complete evisceration of the free market system we have, I think it was necessary. It wasn’t a fun vote. You don’t get to choose the kind of votes you want. But I just think as far as the long term objectives that I have — which are restoring the principles of this country — I think it was necessary to prevent those principles from being really kind of wiped out for a generation."

Ryan is correct, in a sense. If we hadn't bailed them out there is little doubt that there would have been an epic bank run that would have brought them down one after another. It was estimated that they could lose over $5 trillion in capitalization in a matter of hours (electronic transfer). The result would have been an outright government takeover of all the big banks, spearheaded by the FDIC. But when ALL the big banks fail, you can't wind them down using normal procedures (sell off assets) because there is no one left who can buy them.

The fact that they have sort of recovered does not refute this scenario. A short term, total freezing of the credit markets is enough start the cascade. That's what we managed to avert with TARP.

As for the car companies, there is absolutely no doubt that they were going to be liquidated without the bailout. None. They could not qualify for Chapter 11 reorganization on their own and no one else was going to save them.
 
TARP was an unfortunate necessity, but it was absolutely a necessity. Without it the entire banking system would have collapsed and the stock market and private employment with it. We would be in far far worse shape had we not done it. Likewise with GM and Chrysler, an unfortunate situation, but without the bailouts we lose over a million good-paying jobs and permanently cripple the American auto industry. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money.

I have heard this argument many times. What do you think would have happened if GM and Chrysler went under and why would it have been different than when the airlines go into bankruptcy. Do you really think that the country was about to stop buying cars? The large number of jobs you mention is much larger than all of the employees at the two companies, it assumes that ALL of the workers at ALL of the companies supplying parts into those two would also go under, so the assumption would have to be Americans would stop buying cars. This argument never seemed credible. Would there have been job losses yes as there were anyway.
 
I have heard this argument many times. What do you think would have happened if GM and Chrysler went under and why would it have been different than when the airlines go into bankruptcy. Do you really think that the country was about to stop buying cars? The large number of jobs you mention is much larger than all of the employees at the two companies, it assumes that ALL of the workers at ALL of the companies supplying parts into those two would also go under, so the assumption would have to be Americans would stop buying cars. This argument never seemed credible. Would there have been job losses yes as there were anyway.

You seem to not understnad the distinction between Chapter 11 reorganization, which is what the airlines have used, and Chapter 7 *liquidation*, which is what GM and Chrysler were facing. In the former, bondholders and other creditors get a haircut and the company has a chance to start fresh. In the latter, the company is either purchased outright or it's individual assets are sold off to the highest bidder. No one was interested in buying GM or Chrysler with their existing debt load, so they literally would have auctioned off their factory equipment, real estate holdings, machine tools, patents, etc., to recoup investor losses.

The one million unemployed figure seemed to be the one typically cited by independent analysts. It doesn't suggest that all suppliers would have gone out of business, though many of them would have, and many others would have shed employees. Don't forget that GM and Chyrysler also support thousands of dealer networks and subsidiaries like GMAC. Several economists estimated that direct and indirect job loss would be over 3 million employees, but those estimates did not account for job gains by competitors.
 
You seem to not understnad the distinction between Chapter 11 reorganization, which is what the airlines have used, and Chapter 7 *liquidation*, which is what GM and Chrysler were facing. In the former, bondholders and other creditors get a haircut and the company has a chance to start fresh. In the latter, the company is either purchased outright or it's individual assets are sold off to the highest bidder. No one was interested in buying GM or Chrysler with their existing debt load, so they literally would have auctioned off their factory equipment, real estate holdings, machine tools, patents, etc., to recoup investor losses.

The one million unemployed figure seemed to be the one typically cited by independent analysts. It doesn't suggest that all suppliers would have gone out of business, though many of them would have, and many others would have shed employees. Don't forget that GM and Chyrysler also support thousands of dealer networks and subsidiaries like GMAC. Several economists estimated that direct and indirect job loss would be over 3 million employees, but those estimates did not account for job gains by competitors.

First, not sure why the auto industry could not have used the same route as the airlines. Then saying that, this industry would not have been liquidated and sold for scrap. You did not mention where do you think the supply would have come from. There would have been a reorganization, to say anything else is nonsense.
 
First, not sure why the auto industry could not have used the same route as the airlines. Then saying that, this industry would not have been liquidated and sold for scrap. You did not mention where do you think the supply would have come from. There would have been a reorganization, to say anything else is nonsense.

There are specific requirements for Chapter 11 that GM and Chrysler couldn't meet. They were too far gone. Again, there was ZERO chance that they would be reorganized without the government bailout. They were weeks away from going away for good.

The supply would have been made up by the other auto makers, obviously.
 
There are specific requirements for Chapter 11 that GM and Chrysler couldn't meet. They were too far gone. Again, there was ZERO chance that they would be reorganized without the government bailout. They were weeks away from going away for good.

The supply would have been made up by the other auto makers, obviously.

So you think that those factories making GM cars and trucks would have been scraped, really?
 
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