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Thread: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

  1. #891
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    How much is open for debate, but what do you want the price to be for workers?
    First of all, let's be crystal clear about whom you are speaking of when you say "workers".... Traditionally, when libs speak of "workers" they are talking exclusively of Union labor. While it is perfectly fine for say a Union trucker to say they are under paid at an hourly rate of say $25 an hour, and pension benefits that many would absolutely kill for, it is not in your concern level for a non union trucker to make say $600.00 per week and be out on the road for a month at a time with barely any benefits at all.

    Or, in terms like the first example I laid out, the Union factory worker that works the janitorial dept. making on average 3 to 6 times what non union workers in that same profession make. How much do you think that adds to the bottom line pricing of the product made?

    In the global economy, other countries have UHC and their business don't have to provide health care benefits.
    And other countries rely on the innovation to the medical field that the US provides as well. When there is no incentive for that innovation who is going to do these things? Government? Don't make me laugh.

    And instead of actually trying to figure out what the problems we deal with are, the easy, mindless thing to do is say unions and workers are evil, lazy, no good.
    It would be a lot easier having an honest discussion with liberals if they would stop resorting to straw man arguments like you have here.

    Business on the other hand, well, we need to appease them, but not deal with issues like health care.
    See, I think your ire is misplaced. It isn't businesses that are trying to survive in the highest taxed country in the world that are the evil ones here, you promote that foolish argument while at the same time dismissing the 47% of people paying no income taxes, the throngs of generational welfare recipients that the liberal demo's cater to for nothing more than a vote. And those are the same people that Obama is now trying to use the distraction of class warfare to pull scrutiny off his own failure as a President.

    Am I not getting this right?
    No, you are not.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Uh, you were talking about welfare. Now you've moved on to some vague category of spending on people "who don't contribute"? So I guess you concede that you were wrong about welfare? Welfare is programs that give people checks because they're living in poverty. That is TANF. That's what welfare is.

    What do you mean by "people who don't contribute"? Everybody pays taxes, even those who are unable to get a job at all. Most everybody either works or is trying to find work. If you're just going to make a statement about spending on "people who don't contribute", you need to define that before we can even begin to see what a number would be.
    The point I made, which you opposed, was that welfare and entitlement programs are the top 3 most expensive government programs. I don't see how anything in any of your replies is anything other than an attempt to dodge the facts again. The topic here is increasing the income taxes of the rich and when our tax money goes mostly from the pockets of the rich to the drug habits of the poor, you have a pretty weak argument supporting the plan.

    I don't get where the confusion is. In America you have the choice. Nobody, not even the evil rich people, is forcing you to not have a job and to live off of food stamps. My point is simple. If you want more, go out and get more. Stick to the topic, your obvious dodging makes it apparent that you really don't have a clue what it is that you are trying to say.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    m
    Quote Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
    The rich got rich from either generational wealth passed down or they worked their way to a place of wealth (either by leveraging ideas or others ideas).

    But no matter how they achieved their wealth in America, it was done using the power of the society and infrastructure of America. That same infrastructure that the vast majority of Americans paid for to enable that 2% to obtain their vast resources.

    So all of the rich, every single one of them, got rich with the help of us all. THEY DID NOT DO IT ALONE.
    So you truly believe that you are partly responsible for every rich person having the money that they do and that you are entitled to some of it? What a sad life you must live.

    The 2% that obtained vast resources used the same infrastructure that you had access to just as much as they did. Why aren't you one of the rich then if it was so easy for them to just ride on the tax funded charter to easy street? You are also forgetting that those 2% paid for MOST of the infrastructure and 100% of the people complaining are from the 47% that paid nothing for the same things.

    The fact is, as you pointed out, that they either earned it, or were given it by somebody else who CHOSE to give it to them. The CEO of target is rich because people CHOOSE to spend their money at target. How is that the same as your implication that the rich somehow unfairly took advantage of some system that you did not also have access to?

    It is amazing how blind our society is....
    Last edited by Smokified; 09-26-11 at 02:38 PM.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    If there is an error in my reasoning, I am all ears. Or are you going to try to troll your way out of this as Conservative is doing?
    I believe I aksed you to go ahead and explain your reasoning. It was a simple question that you avoided. How do the rich get rich? If you forgot the context of what I am asking you to explain...it is in writing, go back and read it. I even said please.



    Bullcrap it was. Look, I realize that libertarian/conservatives stick up for one another. Your loyalty to each other is unquestioned. All I ask is that you show the same loyalty to this thing called TRUTH. Because in your camp, it's sorely lacking. Posts in this thread are further evidence of this.
    Bullcrap it was? When you come here acting like everyone is crying because they disagree with you and somebody uses your own tactic against you, it is somehow inappropriate in reverse? Grow up.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I know you were just trying to be flipped in your rebuttal, but I think we need to have some perspective on the economics of our day.

    We keep hearing from Republicans that 1% of the top wage earners pay 40% of federal income taxes while 47% of low income households pay no federal income taxes. Folks, hold onto your butts because you're about to be educated...

    According to the latest IRS data:

    Men remain the largest wage earners with a mean income of $75,875/annual and a median income of $57,514. The national mean income level is $69,244; median income is $52,724. (See mean and median income to understand the difference.) The breakdown of mean income by race is as follows:

    Whites = $78,017 (3.9 million wage earners)

    Hispanics = $57,350 (1.09 million wage earners)

    Blacks = $53,702 (780K wage earners)

    The number of households by race earning $250,000 or more is as follows:

    Whites = 399,844

    Hispanics = 457,894

    Blacks = 415,552

    The above figures look pretty good, right? Let's dig alittle deeper into the statistics and see what else we find...

    The 2011 Federal Poverty Level (FPL) (excluding Alaska and Hawaii; they have their own FPL rate): $22,350. Again using the latest IRS data:

    The number of male wage earners with income at or below the FPL: 7.3 million

    The number of senior citizens (65 and older) living at or below the FPL: 2.2 million (See top of linked IRS website below for details)

    The number of single-family homes with at least 4 members in the household at or below the FPL: 582,000

    The number of families at or below the FPL: 6.9 million (See top of linked IRS website for single-family homes above)

    Why are there so many people below age 65 living in poverty today? Lack of skills that would allow wage earners to move up the economic ladder is a primary limiting factor. That problem persists today. Students living in poverty (low-income families) is the primary reason why most can't graduate high school let alone go on to college. Education beyond high school plays a huge role in uplifting students and families out of poverty. Per the latest Dept. of Education statistics:

    Number of minority students living in poverty (Blacks, Hispanics, Native American, Other):

    FY2008: 40% (471,898)
    FY2009: 41% (538,249)

    Note: Refer to page 40, fig. 2.1 of linked DoE report for details

    Now, let's look at some positive education numbers:

    Percentage of Black high school grads (HSG):

    FY2008 Target Grads: 85.5%
    FY2008 Actual Grads: 86.9% (+1.4% over target)

    FY2009 Target Grads: 85.8%
    FY2010 Target Grads: 86%

    Percentage of Hispanic high school grads:

    FY2008 Target Grads: 70.3%
    FY2008 Actual Grads: 75.5 (+5.2% over target)

    FY2009 Target Grads: 70.6%
    FY2010 Target Grads: 71%

    Note: Refer to page 37, fig. 1.6 of linked DoE report. Actual figures for FY2009 and FY2010 grad rates were due out in July, 2011 but have yet to be reported.

    Percentage of Black college graduates from historically Black colleges/universities (HBCUs):

    FY2008 Target Grads: 39%
    FY2008 Actual Grads: 35%

    FY2009 Target Grads: 40%
    FY2009 Actual Grads: 34%

    FY2010 Target Grads: 40%

    Percentage of Hispanice college graduates from traditional Hispanic colleges/universities:

    FY2008 Target Grads: 37%
    FY2008 Actual Grads: 42%

    FY2009 Target Grads: 44%
    FY2009 Actual Grads: 42%

    FY2010 Target Grads: 45%

    Note: Refer to page 46, fig. 3.1 of linked DoE report. Actual figures for FY2010 college grads due out in Dec, 2011.
    These are some nice figures on who earns what, but how does this even remotely support your original statment which appears to imply that actual IRS tax data is invalid?

  6. #896
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    [QUOTE=j-mac;1059826312]
    First of all, let's be crystal clear about whom you are speaking of when you say "workers".... Traditionally, when libs speak of "workers" they are talking exclusively of Union labor. While it is perfectly fine for say a Union trucker to say they are under paid at an hourly rate of say $25 an hour, and pension benefits that many would absolutely kill for, it is not in your concern level for a non union trucker to make say $600.00 per week and be out on the road for a month at a time with barely any benefits at all.

    Or, in terms like the first example I laid out, the Union factory worker that works the janitorial dept. making on average 3 to 6 times what non union workers in that same profession make. How much do you think that adds to the bottom line pricing of the product made?
    I am sorry your sterotyping leads you to misinterpet what anyone means. But, no, I speak of workers period. This includes union workers, but is not limited to union workers. So, don't try to impose your prejudicial and misguided understandings on others.

    If the union person makes more and does better, should I work for others to make more, or for union members to make less? Which shows more concern for the worker? Why? How?

    And other countries rely on the innovation to the medical field that the US provides as well. When there is no incentive for that innovation who is going to do these things? Government? Don't make me laugh.
    You overstate this. I think this is your ethnocentrism at work. Other countries have actually invented things. And here, as I noted for someone else earlier, you might look at the role government money plays in innovation and research here.

    It would be a lot easier having an honest discussion with liberals if they would stop resorting to straw man arguments like you have here.
    As you've throw up more than a few strawmen, this is funny. But, how about you show the way and stop demonizing workers and unions.

    See, I think your ire is misplaced. It isn't businesses that are trying to survive in the highest taxed country in the world that are the evil ones here, you promote that foolish argument while at the same time dismissing the 47% of people paying no income taxes, the throngs of generational welfare recipients that the liberal demo's cater to for nothing more than a vote. And those are the same people that Obama is now trying to use the distraction of class warfare to pull scrutiny off his own failure as a President.
    I'm sorry, but business 1) isn't actually paying those taxes. They have more than enough write offs to not pay much of anything. and 2) even where taxes are elminated, they still leave. Why? Because they can find cheaper labor and avoid benefits. In essence, they don't want to pay a living wage here or concern themselves with benefits if they don't have to. Taxes are really much lower on the list.


    No, you are not.

    j-mac
    Feel free to reasonably explain how I'm not.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Dude. Freeloaders? There are other taxes. Quit lying. We have all called you out like 10 times. It's not like you're fooling anybody....
    ]

    What other taxes? Sales taxes? If they have less money, they are buying less. Still paying less taxes than the rich, who (you guessed it) buy more.

    Who are you fooling? You think nobody notices you continue you ignore the fact that raising taxes on the rich will do nothing to solve our budget problems? Do you think nobody notices that you continue to dodge the fact that 47% (or 51%) of Americans pay no income taxes?

  8. #898
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokified View Post
    ]

    What other taxes? Sales taxes? If they have less money, they are buying less. Still paying less taxes than the rich, who (you guessed it) buy more.

    Who are you fooling? You think nobody notices you continue you ignore the fact that raising taxes on the rich will do nothing to solve our budget problems? Do you think nobody notices that you continue to dodge the fact that 47% (or 51%) of Americans pay no income taxes?
    Fewer yet pay capital gains taxes.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Of course it is. Why would anybody possibly care what type of taxes it is a person pays in through?
    For your argument to be even worth considering you would have to include the amount of money poeple pay in total throughout all forms of tax. Just because you think you are some politically gifted genius, does not mean that you can ignore simple math.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Fewer yet pay capital gains taxes.
    Most people did not receive capital gains. I personally had to claim capital loss. Thanks to the rich and all of the income taxes they paid, I was able to get some of the money back that I lost due to our irresponsible government.
    Last edited by Smokified; 09-26-11 at 03:36 PM.

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