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Thread: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

  1. #1041
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    NO, it doesn't. You have to look at WHAT is being imported. Even you agree with that.
    Looking only at what is being imported/exported gives you the ability to synthesize the dependency of that particular good. Notice, i never stated that the U.S. is not dependent on foreign oil. I did say that we are "less reliant on international trade"!

    If we import a lot of toys, that doesn't make us dependent. It makes a wealthy nation that can afford to spend a lot of money on toys.
    Nonsense. Importing "a lot of toys" makes us dependent on exporting nations to produce and sell us toys in the same light that they are dependent on us to purchase them!

    IOW, your measure is woefully deficient to the purpose you have put it to. Economic dependency is complicated, and not subject to such a simple measure
    First off, it is not "my measure". Secondly, the international trade ratio provides a quantitative value to which we can use in comparison to other nations.

    By saying the U.S. is less reliant on trade than Germany; i am correct! If i was to say that we are less reliant on foreign oil than say Canada; that would be incorrect. It seems as though you cannot distinguish between the two statements, and therein lies your problem.

    You are using circular logic here (ie "a dependent economy will import a large amount, therefor an economy that imports a large amount is dependent")
    WTF are you even talking about? The statement made originally was that an economy whose GDP is more representative of international trade, will have a greater dependence on trade. Which is correct; if you have the ability to find fault in the comment, then by all means go for it.

    And we import more than many other nations (Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc)
    We also export more than many other nations (Saudi Arabia, Venezuela); the nominal sum of imports and exports in no way illustrates a specific economies trade dependence. You have to take into consideration a nationís total output in order to provide a valid relative comparison.


    Maybe not even 50% accuracy. IOW, it's produces results that are worse than random
    Then prove it.

    He made the same argument I did, and even mentioned the same resource (ie oil)
    No. You made a piss poor argument that was supported by three articles in which you did not even read (otherwise you would not have presented them) that in no way validate your opinion. DRZ provided a quality argument that illustrated further observation would be required to produce "the most" accurate analysis. The international trade ratio is a quality method to determine relative trade dependence.

    Not only did you fail in that regard, but you neglected to provide (let alone review) any data that displays exactly how much of our total consumption is imported or how much of our total production is exported. Opinionated drivel might cut it at the coffee shop, but not in discussions with people who have a greater exposure/understanding of this particular topic.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  2. #1042
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I took no issue with his math. I didn't dispute his #'s wrt the ratios he cited, nor did I challenge the formula.

    I challenged his claim that the formula produces a measure of "economic dependency". His formula does nothing more than show what portion of an economy is intl trade.
    Except that his models do measure economic dependency. A fully independent country has a economic dependency of zero as evident by the math. No imports and no exports creates a good baseline to compare dependent nations against. Furthermore, international trade is essentially economic dependence. The higher the trade, the more integrated the more dependent.
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Looking only at what is being imported/exported gives you the ability to synthesize the dependency of that particular good. Notice, i never stated that the U.S. is not dependent on foreign oil. I did say that we are "less reliant on international trade"!
    You are being very misleading. You said that your formula measures economic dependency, and your formula failed to take into account what was being traded.

    The fact is, without foreign trade, our economy grinds to a halt. That means we are highly dependent on intl trade



    Nonsense. Importing "a lot of toys" makes us dependent on exporting nations to produce and sell us toys in the same light that they are dependent on us to purchase them!
    We can stop buying a lot of toys and our economy won't grind to a halt. We can't stop importing oil,or computer chips, or number of other goods without wrecking our economy.

    First off, it is not "my measure". Secondly, the international trade ratio provides a quantitative value to which we can use in comparison to other nations.
    You haven't shown any evidence that anyone besides yourself uses it in the way you have.

    By saying the U.S. is less reliant on trade than Germany; i am correct! If i was to say that we are less reliant on foreign oil than say Canada; that would be incorrect. It seems as though you cannot distinguish between the two statements, and therein lies your problem.
    I never disputed anything you said about Germany so this is a straw man. I also never said we are the most dependent on intl trade either. I merely refuted your claim that your ratio is an accurate measure of independence on intl trade. Try to focus. You're grasping for an argument and your points are lacking coherence as a result



    WTF are you even talking about? The statement made originally was that an economy whose GDP is more representative of international trade, will have a greater dependence on trade. Which is correct; if you have the ability to find fault in the comment, then by all means go for it.
    And that statement has been proven wrong. It has been shown that one must look at what is being imported and exported, and the role those products play in the economy, in order to determine how dependent an economy is on intl trade. Even you agreed with this.



    We also export more than many other nations (Saudi Arabia, Venezuela); the nominal sum of imports and exports in no way illustrates a specific economies trade dependence. You have to take into consideration a nation’s total output in order to provide a valid relative comparison.
    I agree. There are many factors that have to be measured. That's MY point.


    Then prove it.

    You want me to prove a "maybe" statement?




    No. You made a piss poor argument that was supported by three articles in which you did not even read (otherwise you would not have presented them) that in no way validate your opinion. DRZ provided a quality argument that illustrated further observation would be required to produce "the most" accurate analysis. The international trade ratio is a quality method to determine relative trade dependence.
    DRZ said the same thing I did - that you have to look at what is being imported and how that product is used in the economy. He even mentioned the same product that we import...oil


    Not only did you fail in that regard, but you neglected to provide (let alone review) any data that displays exactly how much of our total consumption is imported or how much of our total production is exported. Opinionated drivel might cut it at the coffee shop, but not in discussions with people who have a greater exposure/understanding of this particular topic.
    I made the same argument that DRZ did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Except that his models do measure economic dependency. A fully independent country has a economic dependency of zero as evident by the math. No imports and no exports creates a good baseline to compare dependent nations against. Furthermore, international trade is essentially economic dependence. The higher the trade, the more integrated the more dependent.
    Not necesarily. It depends on what is being imported. Our economy is highly dependent on the importation of oil.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Please show me exactly where i made the statement that "things are great in America"?



    Strawman. I never said times are good.



    I don't believe you understand how these discussion boards work. If you do not wish to respond to my argument, then there is no need to hit the reply button and attempt to discuss something that has absolutely nothing to do with my statement.

    Economic stagnation at this point in time is given; attempting to use it as the premise of your argument makes absolutely ZERO sense.
    "I would like to point out that the U.S. "by far" has one of the most independent economies in the world"
    Your words right?
    Yet the exports and imports of America tell a differant story.
    Yet the parts made by foriegn cheap labor tell a differant story.
    Name a product I will show the dependency to other countries.
    Computers, T.V'S, Auto, Auto parts.ect
    Is this an independent economy or a country depending on incoming cargo?


    Strawmen???
    I do not know where you live but 9+ unemployment, 43% of that haven't worked in 6+months might disagree with your veows.

    If you are comfortable with economic stagnation being a given that is your opinion.
    I can not speak for other Americans but to me economic stagnation in America is unacceptable, as long as it exist I will speak against it, as long as American workers go without work I will speak against it, as long as the American economy keeps building more debt with nothing to show for it I will speak against it.
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Amazing. Simply amazing.
    Hardline right wing party member right.

    I find it odd because a hardline left wing party member would disagree with this to.

    Hardline party members left or right need no reason to disagree with each other , other than the fact that one is right wing the other is left wing, they bicker and whine and play the blame game, point fingers , no matter what plan America is offered

    Americans are getting tired of this bull****.
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You are being very misleading. You said that your formula measures economic dependency, and your formula failed to take into account what was being traded.

    The fact is, without foreign trade, our economy grinds to a halt. That means we are highly dependent on intl trade





    We can stop buying a lot of toys and our economy won't grind to a halt. We can't stop importing oil,or computer chips, or number of other goods without wrecking our economy.



    You haven't shown any evidence that anyone besides yourself uses it in the way you have.



    I never disputed anything you said about Germany so this is a straw man. I also never said we are the most dependent on intl trade either. I merely refuted your claim that your ratio is an accurate measure of independence on intl trade. Try to focus. You're grasping for an argument and your points are lacking coherence as a result





    And that statement has been proven wrong. It has been shown that one must look at what is being imported and exported, and the role those products play in the economy, in order to determine how dependent an economy is on intl trade. Even you agreed with this.





    I agree. There are many factors that have to be measured. That's MY point.


    Then prove it.

    You want me to prove a "maybe" statement?






    DRZ said the same thing I did - that you have to look at what is being imported and how that product is used in the economy. He even mentioned the same product that we import...oil




    I made the same argument that DRZ did.
    Pardon me, sangha.

    I have a question about international trade as well as the global market.

    Should not these two factions be on a competitive basies?
    Having competition of which country exports the most based on which country imports the most.

    Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the country exporting the most have more capital and a better economy?
    Last edited by presluc; 10-04-11 at 06:20 PM.
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  8. #1048
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    Pardon me, sangha.

    I have a question about international trade as well as the global market.

    Should not these two factions be on a competitive basies?
    Having competition of which country exports the most based on which country imports the most.

    Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the country exporting the most have more capital and a better economy?
    I'm not sure what your first question means, but the answer to your 2nd is "possibly but not necesarily"

    There are many nations which export far more than they import. Many third world nations export raw materials but it hasn't resulted in wealth and prosperity except for a few dictators and their most loyal supporters
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I started a business in the mid-90s. It failed. I put in lots of my money and even more from other people with money. I love to hear about how successful people started their businesses.
    I didn't say I was successful at it yet either.... It has taken a ton of my money and has been running at breakeven over the last two quarters. I have been at it for two years (open for 18 months). Hopefully it starts making real money over the next year.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I started a business in the mid-90s. It failed. I put in lots of my money and even more from other people with money. I love to hear about how successful people started their businesses.
    It depends on the business and the market. Some businesses will never succeed. Others require a lot of investment. Others do not.

    My most successful businesses were mostly internet-based. I bought financial data, did some calculations that were then being done by hand, reformatted the data, and sold it to financial institutions who replaced the work done by those employees with my data. Since they no longer employ those people, they don't know how to calculate the info they need, so they can't develop their own software to do the work. All this took was some insight, some labor (to write the programs and built the website) and a little upfront money (to purchase the data and for the internet provider)

    I'm also involved with importing a food product that is hard to find, limited in supply, and superior to other similar products on the market, which I sell to high-end restaurants. The markup is small, as is the market, but it is a steady source of income. It took a little money (to purchase the product initially) and some labor (to go around and sell the product)
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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