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Thread: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Nope! The international trade ratio applied to a macro perspective is used by economists to determine a nations (relative) dependence on international trade. None the less,i have not stated anything that was invalid.
    And yet, you can't link to anything that suggests that your made up definition is accurate




    I don't have to provide links, because we are not arguing whether or not the international trade ratio is used by economists to measure independence; that is simply your strawman.
    You don't understand what a straw man is then.

    You produced nothing of relevance. I bet you didn't even read the articles posted.

    From the Heritage Foundation:



    From businessweek:



    This article clearly states that other nations are dependent on the U.S. to purchase their goods and services.

    The NY times article does not address the topic.



    You didn't even read them!
    You dont seem to understand what you read. That is if you read it.

    As stated, less than 25% of the entire U.S. economy depends on international trade. In comparison to Germany, Taiwan, South Korea, The Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, Poland, Austria, Saudi Arabia, Norway, Mexico, Canada, Russia, Turkey, The U.K., Indonesia, France, Austria, Spain and Venezuela, we are not as dependent on international trade.

    A country who depends heavily on global trade will have a higher international trade ratio. You may admit your error, there is no shame.
    Wrong. A country that ENGAGES heavily in global trade will have a higher intl trade ratio. This has nothing to do with whether its economy is dependent on that trade.

    So I've made no error. All I have to do is point out that you haven't proven anything. All you've done is claim victory, which is not the same as having achieved it.
    Last edited by sangha; 10-03-11 at 01:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, we wouldn't stop buying cars

    We'd stop buying cars that were made by american corporations, and the profits would go overseas.

    And the companies that supply parts for the american car corps would go under and be replaced with foreign companies that would supply the car manufacturers, so additional profits and jobs would go overseas.
    As to whom would buy the companies you are free to guess.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Obama seems to be talking compromise, and painting repubs as standing in the way of that supposed compromise, yet this one trick pony hasn't changed his class warfare message since the day he took office...

    One interesting note, the AP notes this....



    Makes one wonder if the disingenuous group that made the ad showing Paul Ryan pushing Grandma off the cliff will now revise it to show Obama doing the same....? Ofcourse not.

    Also, it strikes me that everytime Obama needs to pay for something, he lays out the same plan, with the same targets to pay for it? How many times can we hear the same 'pass the bill' before it is even submitted as legislation, so therefore no one can read it, or score it, and how many times are we going to allow this empty suit to lie to our face?



    Thoughts

    j-mac
    Wow the OP has the nerve to mix moronic fox news talking points with great rock music.

    Jimmy called, he wants his music back.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And yet, you can't link to anything that suggests that your made up definition is accurate

    So this is your argument; that my definition of trade dependence is inaccurate because i have not posted a link? Instead of being able to explain what is "wrong" with the definition, you question the accuracy based on....????

    You don't understand what a straw man is then.
    You are attacking the definition without displaying how it is invalid. The fact that you have not been exposed to international trade theory in no way invalidates the trade to gdp ratio.

    You dont seem to understand what you read. That is if you read it.
    Of course i do. Nothing you have posted negates anything i have stated.

    Wrong. A country that ENGAGES heavily in global trade will have a higher intl trade ratio. This has nothing to do with whether its economy is dependent on that trade.
    So let me get this straight. A nation engaging heavily in global trade has nothing to do with whether its economy is dependent on that trade? Oh that's cute! In reality, the majority of the world is dependent upon the U.S. purchasing their goods.



    So I've made no error. All I have to do is point out that you haven't proven anything. All you've done is claim victory, which is not the same as having achieved it.
    In the future, it would be helpful to have a solid understanding of international trade before engaging in arguments regarding the subject. That way, you can spend more time making statements of relevance and less time "attempting" to save face.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Goldenboy, I largely agree with you. But in the spirit of debate I will say that the general measure you have used for dependency does not take into account what it is that a country actually imports. I think it is fair to say that the US importing a large amount of oil makes us more dependent than if we were importing the same amount of stuffed animals. A strictly income oriented perspective would miss this. The elasticity of demand for the products matters to. Shocks to the trade of certain commodities would have a larger effect than us not being able to import this years hot toy.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Goldenboy, I largely agree with you. But in the spirit of debate I will say that the general measure you have used for dependency does not take into account what it is that a country actually imports.
    This is correct; it simply illustrates how sensitive a particular economy is to international trade in general.

    I think it is fair to say that the US importing a large amount of oil makes us more dependent than if we were importing the same amount of stuffed animals.
    Of course. But it would also be fair to say that a country which is highly dependent on international trade is likely to import a large amount of oil as well. The U.S. imports around 50% of its total consumption, far less than nations like Japan, Germany, UK, France, Luxembourg, Belgium, etc....

    A strictly income oriented perspective would miss this.
    Or, it would not be able to identify various resource dependency with 100% accuracy. There are a few outliers; to which further investigation would be needed.

    The elasticity of demand for the products matters to. Shocks to the trade of certain commodities would have a larger effect than us not being able to import this years hot toy.
    This is true.

    I appreciate your quality response!
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your definition of independence is a fiction, made up to support your argument. It has no basis in economic theory
    Wait. Seriously? Did you even look at his model?

    A full autarky country should be zero as there is no imports and exports. 0 over anything is zero. A completely dependent would be greater than 1 as total activity exceeds output. His math at least is correct.

    which is why you can't support your made-up definition with any links that show that is how economists measure economic independence
    You know, if you can't even explain his model, that really isn't a good retort.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    So this is your argument; that my definition of trade dependence is inaccurate because i have not posted a link? Instead of being able to explain what is "wrong" with the definition, you question the accuracy based on....????
    I have explained why it's wrong, and have posted links to support my argument

    You haven't explained why it's right (ie you haven't shown how your magic ratio demonstrates independence) nor have you posted any links to support your position.

    IOW, you've got nothing besides your nonsense claims supported by your whines about how you are right.

    You are attacking the definition without displaying how it is invalid. The fact that you have not been exposed to international trade theory in no way invalidates the trade to gdp ratio.
    I have explained why your definition makes no sense, and you have yet to explain why it does make sense. All you have done is claim that the ratio demonstrates economic (in)dependency. You have explained nothing. You have only claimed it.




    So let me get this straight. A nation engaging heavily in global trade has nothing to do with whether its economy is dependent on that trade? Oh that's cute! In reality, the majority of the world is dependent upon the U.S. purchasing their goods.
    Not necesarily. Once again, you are merely claiming to be right without any explanation or support from economists. Your only argument here is "Oh, that's cute!"





    In the future, it would be helpful to have a solid understanding of international trade before engaging in arguments regarding the subject. That way, you can spend more time making statements of relevance and less time "attempting" to save face.
    Another person on the internet claiming to be an expert instead of posting evidence that they're right. Gee, I've never seen that before!!
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    This is correct; it simply illustrates how sensitive a particular economy is to international trade in general.
    NO, it doesn't. You have to look at WHAT is being imported. Even you agree with that.

    If we import a lot of toys, that doesn't make us dependent. It makes a wealthy nation that can afford to spend a lot of money on toys.

    IOW, your measure is woefully deficient to the purpose you have put it to. Economic dependency is complicated, and not subject to such a simple measure



    Of course. But it would also be fair to say that a country which is highly dependent on international trade is likely to import a large amount of oil as well. The U.S. imports around 50% of its total consumption, far less than nations like Japan, Germany, UK, France, Luxembourg, Belgium, etc....
    You are using circular logic here (ie "a dependent economy will import a large amount, therefor an economy that imports a large amount is dependent")

    And we import more than many other nations (Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc)



    Or, it would not be able to identify various resource dependency with 100% accuracy. There are a few outliers; to which further investigation would be needed.
    Maybe not even 50% accuracy. IOW, it's produces results that are worse than random
    This is true.

    I appreciate your quality response!
    He made the same argument I did, and even mentioned the same resource (ie oil)
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Wait. Seriously? Did you even look at his model?

    A full autarky country should be zero as there is no imports and exports. 0 over anything is zero. A completely dependent would be greater than 1 as total activity exceeds output. His math at least is correct.



    You know, if you can't even explain his model, that really isn't a good retort.
    I took no issue with his math. I didn't dispute his #'s wrt the ratios he cited, nor did I challenge the formula.

    I challenged his claim that the formula produces a measure of "economic dependency". His formula does nothing more than show what portion of an economy is intl trade.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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