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Thread: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

  1. #1021
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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You said our economy was very independent. It is not
    If you had the ability to prove such a statement, you would have done so already. Economic independence is relative.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Based on what.... a gut feeling?
    Based on the facts I posted, which you are now ignoring

    A countries independence can be defined as (exports + imports)/GDP all within the same time span. In reality, the European economies are far more dependent than that of the U.S. The higher the ratio, the more dependent.
    Definitions that you make up to win an argument on the internet are not valid.




    Again, based on a gut feeling?
    No, based on the facts



    Source? Also, define many.
    Many manufacturing jobs (ex steel, auto, textiles, computer technology) are not low-skilled jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    If you had the ability to prove such a statement, you would have done so already. Economic independence is relative.
    Highly ironic. If you had the ability to prove your statement, you would have already done so.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Based on the facts I posted, which you are now ignoring
    You posted nothing of significance.

    Definitions that you make up to win an argument on the internet are not valid.
    I made up no definition. The fact remains, the U.S. is far less reliant on trade than any other nation in the world. If it were truly depenent, a greater portion of total output would come in the form of either imports, exports, or both.

    For example. I can state that the nation of Luxembourg is extremely dependent on other nations with great accuracy. Why? Because the nation of Luxembourg imports more than they produce in a given year (which means their import/GDP ratio is greater than 100%).

    In comparison to the United States, Luxembourg is far more dependent.

    Many manufacturing jobs (ex steel, auto, textiles, computer technology) are not low-skilled jobs.
    Again with the fictitious use of the word "many". We do know that the U.S. is the global leader in exports of services. Basic intuition leads us to believe that we export highly skilled services.
    Last edited by Kushinator; 10-02-11 at 07:59 PM.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Highly ironic. If you had the ability to prove your statement, you would have already done so.
    I have done so already. It probably just takes time to sink in
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You posted nothing of significance.
    Says the poster who made up his own definition of "economic independence"



    I
    made up no definition. The fact remains, the U.S. is far less reliant on trade than any other nation in the world. If it were truly depenent, a greater portion of total output would come in the form of either imports, exports, or both.
    Sure you did. That's why you can't link to any source that supports your mythical definition of economic independence

    U.S.: Time To Cope With Co-Dependency
    U.S. Import Dependence on China: Free Markets and National Defense
    US/ASIA: State dependence on trade with Asia grows - The New York Times
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Says the poster who made up his own definition of "economic independence"
    I simply took the discussion into proper context. If we wanted to measure the independence of a particular economy, the first place we start is defining parameters (or limits). A nation that is completely independent would have ZERO reliance on foreign trade. Accordingly, we would then assume a nation that is completely dependent would import + export more than the entire economy is able to produce (in terms of GDP).

    Completely Dependent = (imports + exports)/output ≥ 1

    Completely Independent = (imports + exports)/output = 0

    A problem arises with establishing independence or dependence. How do we determine it (or better yet, how do we quantify it?) ? The solution is to make it a zero-sum game in terms of relativity. The most independent economy has the lowest reliance on foreign trade where as the most dependent economy hast the highest reliance on foreign trade.

    I can therefore state with great accuracy that the U.S. has an internally driven economy, or it is more independent than nearly every other economy.

    Sure you did. That's why you can't link to any source that supports your mythical definition of economic independence

    U.S.: Time To Cope With Co-Dependency
    U.S. Import Dependence on China: Free Markets and National Defense
    US/ASIA: State dependence on trade with Asia grows - The New York Times
    How do these three articles support your argument?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by presluc View Post
    You speak of intelligence Icould not have posted more clearly.
    QUOTE "Having the Vice President of the U.S. as a personal friend of the CEO of a company just "might" help get a "no bid contract, "MAYBE"? The word Haliburtian comes to mind.
    . . .
    I need no imagination I suppose this "may" have been the only thing the Democratic Congress and the Republican White House staff that agreed on the reason simple; money and power a little inside trading.
    . . .
    I do not know how much clearly I can write.
    For if you do not understand that, you are either a hardline right wing member or???
    Amazing. Simply amazing.

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    I simply took the discussion into proper context. If we wanted to measure the independence of a particular economy, the first place we start is defining parameters (or limits). A nation that is completely independent would have ZERO reliance on foreign trade. Accordingly, we would then assume a nation that is completely dependent would import + export more than the entire economy is able to produce (in terms of GDP).

    Completely Dependent = (imports + exports)/output ≥ 1

    Completely Independent = (imports + exports)/output = 0

    A problem arises with establishing independence or dependence. How do we determine it (or better yet, how do we quantify it?) ? The solution is to make it a zero-sum game in terms of relativity. The most independent economy has the lowest reliance on foreign trade where as the most dependent economy hast the highest reliance on foreign trade.
    Your definition of independence is a fiction, made up to support your argument. It has no basis in economic theory, which is why you can't support your made-up definition with any links that show that is how economists measure economic independence

    I, on the other hand, posted links from several sources, including the rightwing Heritage Foundation, which used other means to measure economic independence.



    How do these three articles support your argument?
    By reading them. They all mention our dependence on trade with other nations
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama to propose $1.5 trillion in new tax revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your definition of independence is a fiction, made up to support your argument.
    Nope! The international trade ratio applied to a macro perspective is used by economists to determine a nations (relative) dependence on international trade. None the less,i have not stated anything that was invalid.


    It has no basis in economic theory, which is why you can't support your made-up definition with any links that show that is how economists measure economic independence
    I don't have to provide links, because we are not arguing whether or not the international trade ratio is used by economists to measure independence; that is simply your strawman.

    I, on the other hand, posted links from several sources, including the rightwing Heritage Foundation, which used other means to measure economic independence.
    You produced nothing of relevance. I bet you didn't even read the articles posted.

    From the Heritage Foundation:

    Despite the impressive volume of imports from China, the data show no dependence that would threaten national security in a crisis. A notable qualifier to this conclusion is low data quality. Available data are insufficiently specific and partly incompatible, which may perhaps obscure instances of American dependence. While these have drawn attention as a possible national security issue, Chinese goods imports are only one piece of a large puzzle. There currently is no U.S. dependence on flows of services, capital, people, and information from China, either, but the dimensions and magnitude of the bilateral economic relationship mean it bears watching. And there are certainly other economic partners now and in the future who might be deemed unreliable in a crisis.
    While it is important to evaluate American dependence more systematically, any findings of dependence should still be treated carefully. Alternate supplies should be cultivated and the feasibility of stockpiling assessed. Direct government action to mitigate dependence and enhance military capability in a crisis should be a last resort. Such action will be costly, reduce incentives for innovation, and typically have unanticipated consequences that could rebound, harming national security. The principles in this paper serve to ensure that costly actions to reduce dependence only occur when absolutely necessary.
    From businessweek:

    AFTER ALL, the world's trade deficits and surpluses must all add up to zero. So if the U.S. reduces its gap, other countries must experience a shrinkage in their trade surpluses or a rise in their deficits. As Catherine L. Mann, a senior fellow at the Institute for International Economics, points out, foreign countries depend on U.S. imports both directly and indirectly for economic growth. This dependency is most apparent in Asia, but it is a trend around the world. And it argues that a shrinking dollar alone is inadequate to narrow the deficit.

    In a speech last year, Mann laid out the mutual benefits and risks in what she calls "the global co-dependency" of the U.S. trade deficit. Overall, "countries have a vested interest in a large and chronic U.S. trade deficit. Their dependency on U.S. demand as a source of growth matches the U.S. dependency on foreign savings to finance domestic investment."
    This article clearly states that other nations are dependent on the U.S. to purchase their goods and services.

    The NY times article does not address the topic.

    By reading them. They all mention our dependence on trade with other nations
    You didn't even read them!

    As stated, less than 25% of the entire U.S. economy depends on international trade. In comparison to Germany, Taiwan, South Korea, The Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, Poland, Austria, Saudi Arabia, Norway, Mexico, Canada, Russia, Turkey, The U.K., Indonesia, France, Austria, Spain and Venezuela, we are not as dependent on international trade.

    A country who depends heavily on global trade will have a higher international trade ratio. You may admit your error, there is no shame.
    Last edited by Kushinator; 10-02-11 at 11:46 PM.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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