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Thread: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

  1. #1651
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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Imagine you own a burger joint. Business is good, and you have your prices set out, and after taxes and business expenses, you end up with a certain amount every year. That is your pay. Now imagine that an existing tax is increased, or some new fee pops, and bam, it now costs you an extra 500 a week to own and operate your business. Are you going to take that hit in your take home pay? No, you are going to pass that cost on to your customer, in the form of menu items going up by a few more cents, across the board. This is not a hard concept.

    If

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    You're jumping in a little late, but just because I'm nice, I'll fill you in, and then maybe Catawba will better understand my point. I asked this...

    "Have you ever known a person to settle for making less, if they have the clear and easy means to make more?"

    Catawba answered thus...

    "Yes, that is why the country adopted progressive tax rates in the first place, to prevent a few robber barons from owning the country."

    To which I responded...

    "No, it was started to fund the civil war. The "progressive" part began when extracting a flat tax no longer sufficed for the ever expanding budget. It was decided to take more from wealthier people ONLY because they feared a second uprising like the one they experienced after announcing that the then "war time" tax on income would remain in effect, despite there being no war. And since there are usually far more non rich than rich...they opted to tick off the lesser of the two threats. History. It's not just for historians anymore."

    And Catawba said...


    "Obviously, as you have abandoned the historian's perspective to just make up your own."

    At which point I suggested maybe he research the HISTORY of the 16th amendment, to better understand how I am most certainly NOT abandoning the historians perspective just to make up my own. I did not say to read what it says, but to look up the history of the thing. And no, it would NOT be a simple copy and paste, it would have been a wall of text, if I had done so, and no one would have read it, because people tend not to read things that take longer than 5 minutes on debate forums. So, next time you want to jump into something, maybe take a peak first, otherwise you might end up in ****.


    Entertaining story, can you tell us the one about Snow White and the Seven Dwarves next???
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #1653
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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Just as we had in the Great Depression so that that we had to implement progressive taxation to allow consumers enough money to spend to stimulate the economy.
    History of the Income Tax in the United States — Infoplease.com

    The Progressive Income Tax in U.S. History | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty

    Tax History Project: Readings -- A Flawed History of American Tax Revolts

    This will get you started. Then maybe you'll understand just how wrong you statement is. I doubt you'll read any of this, though. Ignorance is bliss, they say.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Imagine you own a burger joint. Business is good, and you have your prices set out, and after taxes and business expenses, you end up with a certain amount every year. That is your pay. Now imagine that an existing tax is increased, or some new fee pops, and bam, it now costs you an extra 500 a week to own and operate your business. Are you going to take that hit in your take home pay? No, you are going to pass that cost on to your customer, in the form of menu items going up by a few more cents, across the board. This is not a hard concept.

    If
    You know, with one in seven Americans living in poverty, I find it hard to work up a lot of sympathy for those that have over a million dollars in income.
    Last edited by Catawba; 10-07-11 at 01:18 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Entertaining story, can you tell us the one about Snow White and the Seven Dwarves next???
    Sure, right after you actually try to educate yourself about the subject matter you deem have an opinion on worth reading about.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    At which point I suggested maybe he research the HISTORY of the 16th amendment, to better understand how I am most certainly NOT abandoning the historians perspective just to make up my own. I did not say to read what it says, but to look up the history of the thing. And no, it would NOT be a simple copy and paste, it would have been a wall of text, if I had done so, and no one would have read it, because people tend not to read things that take longer than 5 minutes on debate forums. So, next time you want to jump into something, maybe take a peak first, otherwise you might end up in ****.
    Say what you will about sources, but I just happen to love them. In general, I am not a fan of the "take my word for it and if you do not believe it go research it yourself" method. By the way, I literally googled: "History of taxation" and found about 32089432 sources. Here is a good one:

    1
    The first income tax suggested in the United States was during the War of 1812. The tax was based on the British Tax Act of 1798 and applied progressive rates to income. The rates were .08% on income above 60 and 10 percent on income above 200. The tax was developed in 1814 but was never imposed because the treaty of Ghent was signed in 1815 ending hostilities and the need for additional revenue.
    Then, just as you said:

    The Tax Act of 1862 was passed and signed by President Lincoln July 1 1862. The rates were 3% on income above $600 and 5% on income above $10,000. The rent or rental value of your home could be deducted from income in determining the tax liability. The Commissioner of Revenue stated "The people of this country have accepted it with cheerfulness, to meet a temporary exigency, and it has excited no serious complaint in its administration." This acceptance was primarily due to the need for revenue to finance the Civil War.
    Of course, you missed a small detail. Those taxes were started in America for the first time to fund wars. Earlier, you'll see this:

    Taxes during 14th century were very progressive; The 1377 Poll tax noted that the tax on the Duke of Lancaster was 520 times the tax on the common peasant.
    And the, if you keep reading below the Civil War, it also becomes evident that the progressive tax system set up for the Civil War was only temporary (which makes sense since it was only to fund the war). So, shortly thereafter, this happened:

    With the end of the Civil War the public's accepted cheerfulness with regard to taxation waned. The Tax Act of 1864 was modified after the war. The rates were changed to a flat 5 percent with the exemption amount raised to $1,000. Several attempts to make the tax permanent were tried but by 1869 " no businessman could pass the day without suffering from those burdens"
    (The whole "poor business man is suffering" thing sounds pretty familiar, huh?)

    And since Google has many sources, it also lead me to this:

    2
    In 1913, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution made the income tax a permanent fixture in the U.S. tax system. The amendment gave Congress legal authority to tax income and resulted in a revenue law that taxed incomes of both individuals and corporations.
    So it took until 1913 for the tax system to be officially ratified. I fail to see your point here. Clearly the tax system was set up at no time near the Civil War, and while it did get some inspiration from the Civil War and the War of 1812, it would be even more historically accurate to say that it was truly inspired from our European ancestors. After the Civil War, we switched back to

    Are we done here?

    *Edit to add:

    I left out the most important part.
    3
    In 1913, almost 20 years later, the ideas of uniform taxation and equal protection of the law for all citizens were overturned when a constitutional amendment permitting a progressive income tax was ratified. Congress first set the top rate at a mere 7 percent—and married couples were only taxed on income over $4,000 (equivalent to $80,000 today). During the tax debate, William Shelton, a Georgian, supported the income tax “because none of us here have $4,000 incomes, and somebody else will have to pay the tax.” As Madison and Field had feared, the seeds of class warfare were sown in the strategy of different rates for different incomes.
    You are both, in essence, right. I do not really see the argument. You can see right there from that quote that Catawba is also easily correct as the newest and most relevant tax system was set up so that the rich would have to pay the highest burden and the poor would not be affected as much.
    Last edited by whysoserious; 10-07-11 at 01:23 AM.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    History of the Income Tax in the United States — Infoplease.com

    The Progressive Income Tax in U.S. History | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty

    Tax History Project: Readings -- A Flawed History of American Tax Revolts

    This will get you started. Then maybe you'll understand just how wrong you statement is. I doubt you'll read any of this, though. Ignorance is bliss, they say.
    Are you familiar with the way the rule of law works in this country? Like most Americans, I happen to believe in the rule of law. So just let me know when the Supreme Court has ruled income taxes unconstitutional. Thanks!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Imagine you own a burger joint. Business is good, and you have your prices set out, and after taxes and business expenses, you end up with a certain amount every year. That is your pay. Now imagine that an existing tax is increased, or some new fee pops, and bam, it now costs you an extra 500 a week to own and operate your business. Are you going to take that hit in your take home pay? No, you are going to pass that cost on to your customer, in the form of menu items going up by a few more cents, across the board. This is not a hard concept.

    If
    Sorry, not that simple. A company can not simply pass its taxes along to the consumer. Prices are established by supply and demand curves. People will only pay so much for a burger... your taxes go up, you can try to raise prices, but it may not work. The burger joint across the street will have a different tax scenario.. he may not be paying taxes because he is a start-up, so he has not need to raise his prices, so people go there and the first joint is forced to match the price (and thus eat all of the tax). If businesses could just set their price, they would, but they can not. Market conditions dictate price.

    There is an economic concept called the "Incidence of Tax". It deals which portion of a tax change is actually paid by the customer and which portion is absorbed by the business. The supply/demand curves dictate this allocation. If the product is highly inelastic (price increases result in more revenue as customers are not driven away with increase... gasoline is an example of this), then the tax can be passed along. On the other hand, if the product is highly elastic, then then raising prices result in so many customers not buying that the business actually has less revenue (airline tickets are generally highly elastic)..

    You can generally pass cost and tax increases along when your company deals in inelastic products, but you will generally eat the taxes if your product is elastic.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 10-07-11 at 01:23 AM.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    Say what you will about sources, but I just happen to love them. In general, I am not a fan of the "take my word for it and if you do not believe it go research it yourself" method. By the way, I literally googled: "History of taxation" and found about 32089432 sources. Here is a good one:

    1


    Then, just as you said:



    Of course, you missed a small detail. Those taxes were started in America for the first time to fund wars. Earlier, you'll see this:



    And the, if you keep reading below the Civil War, it also becomes evident that the progressive tax system set up for the Civil War was only temporary (which makes sense since it was only to fund the war). So, shortly thereafter, this happened:



    (The whole "poor business man is suffering" thing sounds pretty familiar, huh?)

    And since Google has many sources, it also lead me to this:

    2


    So it took until 1913 for the tax system to be officially ratified. I fail to see your point here. Clearly the tax system was set up at no time near the Civil War, and while it did get some inspiration from the Civil War and the War of 1812, it would be even more historically accurate to say that it was truly inspired from our European ancestors. After the Civil War, we switched back to

    Are we done here?

    *Edit to add:

    I left out the most important part.
    3


    You are both, in essence, right. I do not really see the argument.
    I'm really not getting your point...you are pretty much backing up everything I have to say. I'll add, though...in addition to "the poor business man not being able to make ends meat", they were also denied by violent protest and minor revolts. Which is why the "poor" business man was no longer targeted...but the wealthy instead. I don't really care what happend in the 14th century, as might have been gleaned from the fact I asked to be versed in the history of the 16th amendment, not tax history in general. The purpose to which, to find out the real reason why the progressive tax targeted who it did.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Are you familiar with the way the rule of law works in this country? Like most Americans, I happen to believe in the rule of law. So just let me know when the Supreme Court has ruled income taxes unconstitutional. Thanks!
    Read the second link I provided for you, smart guy. The supreme court DID throw down the progressive income tax, numerous times, on account that it unfairly targets and DISCRIMINATES against a minority of people. The only reason why it eventually got through is, guess who appoints the supreme court justices? Simple matter to appoint folks who are not going to challenge the law as it's passed....and once it's been in for a while, it's VERY hard to get rid of. But of course, being the expert you are, you probably already knew all of this, right?

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