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Thread: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Not to sound offensive, but I find it's next to impossible to debate true, hardcore liberals with facts, numbers, and other qualitative, quantifiable figures. They tend towards the emotional range of most arguments, rather than dealing with cold hard facts.

    HOWEVER.

    Here are some thoughts. Where does the majority of our government's spending money already come from? Middle class, lower class, or upper class? Well, let's see...there is virtually NO middle class anymore, so it can't be them, and the lower class pays no taxes, other than sales tax...so, it must already be coming from the upper crust folk, right? So then, if they are already paying the bulk of our budget...does it seem very fair to ask them to do more? There is an emotion based argument, and have at it.

    Here is another thought. What do these super rich people do for a living? What does Warren Buffet do for a living? Does he run a company? Does that company employ people? The majority of the wealthy in this country are owners, operators, and board members of large, large companies. We're talking, companies that own other companies, that own other companies. Globally. Simple enough facts to grant...so here is a question. Warren Buffet aside, which of these old white men do you think is going to say, "Hey, the US just upped my tax amount each year by another 5%. I guess now I'll just have to settle for 5% less income now." Listen, these people didn't get rich by settling for that. They got rich because they are uncompromising men who only settled for the absolute best they could get. They are NOT going to take a paycut. They are going to cut expenses, and increase the cost of their products and services. This equals higher cost of living, and possibly greater levels of unemployment, or worse, UNDERemployment. Which is to say, people with masters degrees working at the checkout lane in grocery stores. Taxing the wealthy is, at best, a VERY temporary solution, and at worst, a short sighted nightmare. Now I'm not saying it's right that you have, say, 12 HUGE companies that own most everything in this country, and on this planet, and that to attack those companies profit margins results in ever lowering standards of living for us all...but that is the world we live in. You can't fix the top of a building without first making sure the foundation is secure, and our foundation is anything but, these days.

    A closing thought...The real problem here, aside from the presence of mega corporations that are now legal people (LOL), is the fact that the US government is the single largest employer in the world, now. No other companies, hell, almost no other GROUPS of companies, employ as many people as the government does. That is a pyramid scheme. If most of the people are employed by a firm that doesn't produce profits, where does the payroll come from? From the other people working there, and the minority of the rest of us that DON'T have cushy government jobs. So, n a nutshell, would you say that it might be time to severely cut back the the single largest "company" in the land?
    Given a choice I would rather see my money going to government employees then to the failed Wall Street CEO,s who have shown their inability to manage. What group was responsible for the recession public employees or Wall Street CEO'S and their employess

    Maybe saying they were not able to manage was less then accurate maybe they knew exactly what they were doing and what the impact on or economy would be and just didn't care as long as they could pad their bank accounts, what do you think?

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Most people here say that taxes are the problem, but they really aren't. The problem is that spending has gone out of control. We could all thank Dubya Bush for that. First of all, you cannot have a war that you don't pay for, let alone two of them. What president goes to war and tells the American people "hey, this one's a freebie!". Secondly, when Republicans controlled both houses of Congress how come none of them objected to the massive over-spending game? I know Democrats are guilty of it too, but the Republicans started it. And now they blame it all on the Democrats and Obamacare and the EPA or whatever they think it is. How come Republicans can get away with their spending but when Democrats do it it's an absolute tragedy? At least be consistent and actually practice what you preach.
    The GOP National Committee should change their emblem from an elephant to a condom. A condom stands up to inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects pricks, and gives one a sense of security and safety while screwing others.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Given a choice I would rather see my money going to government employees then to the failed Wall Street CEO,s who have shown their inability to manage. What group was responsible for the recession public employees or Wall Street CEO'S and their employess

    Maybe saying they were not able to manage was less then accurate maybe they knew exactly what they were doing and what the impact on or economy would be and just didn't care as long as they could pad their bank accounts, what do you think?
    Great, then write them the check instead of taking out Govt. admin fees. Funny how millions and millions of Americans have nothing invested in Wall Street. Think many poor people have investment accounts? This is an act on your part, isn't it?

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    muRda;1059846925]Funny how the numbers you posted for 2009 here...
    What is funny is you don't know how to use the site. You can go to that site, home page and put whatever year you want and get the data. Suggest you do better research

    are eerily similar to the numbers I posted here:
    Numbers are what they are and that seems to be the problem with liberals who want to change the numbers. We have a 14.6 trillion dollar debt and when you go to the Treasury site you will see SS and Medicare ON BUDGET

    They're listed differently and under different topics but still roughly similar.
    The issue remains, why do we need a 3.7 trillion dollar budget? What is different is that SS and Medicare shouldn't be on budget and then the rest of those items are funded by FIT.

    I also don't know where you read-in that the CBO takes assumptions from Congress. And having studied government accounting, I'd really rather not take information from a site that uses it for numbers, even if they be from the U.S. Treasury. It's a cluster**** I will loathe when I have to study for my remaining parts of the CPA exam.
    I suggest better research on CBO, their role and where they get their data.

    Okay, you're going from apples to oranges. I'm comparing military spending to military spending, not to overall spending.
    Military spending as part of total spending constitutes about 20% of the budget thus the question as to the role of the Federal Govt. vs the role of the state govt.


    I care about waste just as much as you do, and one of the main areas of waste is defense spending. I fail to see how a concern in how 20% of the budget is spent is not something to be concerned about. And I guess not, please explain.
    Does that really make sense to you, defense budget is 700 plus billion out of a 3.7 trillion dollar budget and you really believe that is the only part of that budget with waste, fraud, and abuse?

    Yes I pay taxes, and no, I'm not leaving simply because of taxes. That seems to be the easiest, go-to scapegoat tho. Again, you really oversimplify everything by saying either "it's taxes" or "it's Obama." Millions of variables are setting the conditions, not just the one in the headlines.
    So, let's see, your Federal Taxes go up, what does that do to state revenue and what does that do to your take home pay? You telling me that if FIT goes up you aren't going to find a way to reduce state taxes? Best way to do that is to move to a state with no State income taxes. Businesses and people are doing that all the time. Research TX.

    Speaking of conservative diatribes...
    It isn't diatribe when actual non partisan data is posted.

    Awesome how you lead with that, and then succeed in doing exactly what you accuse "the other side" of doing.
    What is awesome is the ability to be whatever you want to be in this country and make as much money as you are capable of making.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Snevert View Post
    Most people here say that taxes are the problem, but they really aren't. The problem is that spending has gone out of control. We could all thank Dubya Bush for that. First of all, you cannot have a war that you don't pay for, let alone two of them. What president goes to war and tells the American people "hey, this one's a freebie!". Secondly, when Republicans controlled both houses of Congress how come none of them objected to the massive over-spending game? I know Democrats are guilty of it too, but the Republicans started it. And now they blame it all on the Democrats and Obamacare and the EPA or whatever they think it is. How come Republicans can get away with their spending but when Democrats do it it's an absolute tragedy? At least be consistent and actually practice what you preach.

    So here we go again, blaming Bush, If Bush is responsible for spending during his term and added 4.9 trillion to the debt, why isn't Obama responsible for the spending in his term adding 4 trillion to the debt in 3 years? You cannot have it both ways. Deficits are yearly and come from yearly budgets. Bush deficits have nothing to do with Obama spending.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Obama budgets are 600 billion a year more than Bush's 2008 budget thus the baseline is 3.7 trillion. Why do we need a 3.7 trillion dollar budget?
    Where are you getting 3.7 trillion? Bush was President when the Federal Fiscal year 2009 budget was passed and the spending was 3.1 trillion. Obama's first budget passed during his presidency in 2010 was 3.09 trillion.


    20% of GDP is govt. spending so tell me who pays for that govt. spending? Spending offset by debt creates a net gain of zero.
    Long term yes, short term no, which is the whole crux of the argument.

    Deficits are yearly and if you are going to blame Bush for the Medicare Part D expense you better look at the Democrat alternative which was much higher.
    So your defense of Bush spending is based on plans that didn't pass....by the minority party that knew their plan wouldn't pass.

    then you would be wrong and someone who doesn't know the components of GDP
    I know them pretty well actually. I will amend my statement...a targeted tax cut at income levels where individuals spend near their full salary on consumption will spur an increase in consumption. A tax cut for individuals at income levels were they already don't spend their full income on consumption will lead to an increase in investing. The question is...what's our issue here. I would say that it's not an issue with capital...we have companies sitting on cash, our issue is consumption, which is why they aren't using that cash to employ people.

    My issue with the whole "tax cuts spur growth" is that if you give say a 900 billion dollar tax cut, and a large chunk of that goes towards individuals who will not use that for consumption (high income earners) then you're not spurring growth with those taxes. Now you may spur a stock market boom, but that doesn't necessarily translate to job growth...which is evident under the Bush years and during our "recovery" period.

    I posted the breakdown on the tax cuts on this thread. Suggest you review them and then explain how they helped the economy especially since we have more unemployed today than when that stimulus was signed and when Obama took office. The actual number today is 842 billion dollars and was for shovel ready jobs. Guess the shovels weren't ready. 25 million unemployed and under employed Americans don't think the stimulus was successful
    Why would I need to argue this. Economists from Goldman Sachs to the CBO state it created jobs and increased GDP growth.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    So here we go again, blaming Bush, If Bush is responsible for spending during his term and added 4.9 trillion to the debt, why isn't Obama responsible for the spending in his term adding 4 trillion to the debt in 3 years? You cannot have it both ways. Deficits are yearly and come from yearly budgets. Bush deficits have nothing to do with Obama spending.
    What I'm saying is how come Democrats get crap for it while Republicans were just as guilty of it less than a decade ago? Why do they get a free pass? It's both sides who are to blame. And yes I DO blame Bush. He cuts taxes and lets the deficit run out of control. And he permitted the economy to fall into s*** in 2008 and even further with his stimulus package, which did just a cracker jack job in solving the problem. If Obama started the deficit I'd be blaming him for the whole thing.
    The GOP National Committee should change their emblem from an elephant to a condom. A condom stands up to inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects pricks, and gives one a sense of security and safety while screwing others.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Great, then write them the check instead of taking out Govt. admin fees. Funny how millions and millions of Americans have nothing invested in Wall Street. Think many poor people have investment accounts? This is an act on your part, isn't it?
    Here is a fact you side step the facts every chance you get, I continue to write a check to the government every time I get paid. You either do not want to admit that Wall Street effects every single American or you refuse to admit it, poor people do not have the money to invest but the poor decisions Wall Street CEO's make effects every one rich or poor, the unregulated practices of Wall Street allow those "with" to steal from those "without" even though those "without" are not invested in Wall Street. Wall Street is a scam artist's paradise filled with speculators, hedge funds, predatory lending practices, direviatives, selling short ect ect ect . Wall Street and the rich now run our country by controlling the economy and the conservative republican party

    2012

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    iliveonramen;1059847108]Where are you getting 3.7 trillion? Bush was President when the Federal Fiscal year 2009 budget was passed and the spending was 3.1 trillion. Obama's first budget passed during his presidency in 2010 was 3.09 trillion.
    From the Budget of the United States at the link I gave you. Further the 2009 Budget was passed without Republican support thus passed due to Obama and the Democrats. Obama voted for that budget then put the Department heads in place to spend the money. Fiscal year of the U.S.Runs from October to September. October 2008 to January 20, 2009 Bush was in charge but the rest of the year it was Obama. Not sure where you got the 3.09 budget for 2010 but that isn't what the Treasury Dept shows.

    Long term yes, short term no, which is the whole crux of the argument.
    There is no long term in relationship to the budget as budgets are yearly. GDP is made up of four components and the govt. component is 20% on a yearly basis. Who pays for that govt. expense?


    So your defense of Bush spending is based on plans that didn't pass....by the minority party that knew their plan wouldn't pass.
    Stop buying the liberal rhetoric. Congress appropriates the money and also spends money. Democrats controlled Congress from 2007-2011 with overwhelming numbers in 2009-2010

    I know them pretty well actually. I will amend my statement...a targeted tax cut at income levels where individuals spend near their full salary on consumption will spur an increase in consumption. A tax cut for individuals at income levels were they already don't spend their full income on consumption will lead to an increase in investing. The question is...what's our issue here. I would say that it's not an issue with capital...we have companies sitting on cash, our issue is consumption, which is why they aren't using that cash to employ people.
    I have seen no evidence that yo uknow the four components of GDP and the percentage each contributes. Targeted tax cuts from Obama were short term and once gone are gone. You are still receiving the Bush tax cuts thus more take home pay. Regardless of where those evil rich people put their money it helps the economy unless they bury it in the backyard.

    Tax cuts for all individuals means more take home pay, period. Rich putting it into a bank means more money available for lending.

    My issue with the whole "tax cuts spur growth" is that if you give say a 900 billion dollar tax cut, and a large chunk of that goes towards individuals who will not use that for consumption (high income earners) then you're not spurring growth with those taxes. Now you may spur a stock market boom, but that doesn't necessarily translate to job growth...which is evident under the Bush years and during our "recovery" period.
    Bush took over an economy with a GDP of 9.9 trillion and left it at 14.4 trillion, that is good economic growth.

    Why would I need to argue this. Economists from Goldman Sachs to the CBO state it created jobs and increased GDP growth.
    So Goldman Sachs knows how you spend your money? Don't care what Goldman Sachs says, only know what people do with more spendable income.

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    Re: White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

    Quote Originally Posted by Snevert View Post
    What I'm saying is how come Democrats get crap for it while Republicans were just as guilty of it less than a decade ago? Why do they get a free pass? It's both sides who are to blame. And yes I DO blame Bush. He cuts taxes and lets the deficit run out of control. And he permitted the economy to fall into s*** in 2008 and even further with his stimulus package, which did just a cracker jack job in solving the problem. If Obama started the deficit I'd be blaming him for the whole thing.
    Do you have any idea why we have a Congress and what their role is? As for deficits, they are yearly and come from the budgets. Obama deficits for 2009-2011 will total over 4 trillion dollars.

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