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Thread: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

  1. #21
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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If its a sovereign nation then why do they get US tax payer money?
    They pay taxes too you know... They're kind of semi-sovereign. Whether the power to abrogate whatever treaty they supposedly made including these folks is one they have or not I don't know. As Pinkie correctly pointed out, Indian law is extremely complex and not all that intuitive. I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess whether that was legal or not.

    That said, I certainly do oppose any group anywhere trying to exclude people from their community based on their race of course.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That said, I certainly do oppose any group anywhere trying to exclude people from their community based on their race of course.
    Even when that community is based entirely ON Race? So you would suggest that all the Black Student Unions on college campuses should be forced to allow whites and asians to join?

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    They do not need US tax payer money, reservations(Oklahoma has no reservations), and separate sovereignty for self-determination.
    You are right. They do not need to receive US taxpaying money when they self-determinate. However, they have the right to self-determination. In fact, any state has this right.

    Unfortunately, when people exercise this basic human right it is met with violence.
    Last edited by Antiderivative; 09-17-11 at 10:26 PM.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Even when that community is based entirely ON Race? So you would suggest that all the Black Student Unions on college campuses should be forced to allow whites and asians to join?
    Its different to expel people that have already been in the group for generations than to form a group based on race.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    If you didn't bother to read the OP's link, I shouldn't have to bother to bring the pertinent passages to you. However, I shall do so.



    What we have here is a treaty and Cherokee Law upheld for nearly 150 years recognizing 2,800 current Cherokee Freedmen, descendants of Cherokee African slaves, as tribal members suddenly being revoked when the Cherokee's decided to change their constitution, throwing out tribal members that could not prove they had Cherokee blood, and doing so to prevent them from voting in the next tribal election.

    It's kind of like if the SCOTUS decided to toss out that pesky "all men are equal" part of the USA constitution, then decide that no black in America could vote unless they could prove they had "white" blood in their veins.

    Which shows that the Cherokee nation is not above using law to promulgate racism, vote rigging, breaking international commitments, and corruption. Kinda like every other government on the planet. But certainly it should not be rewarded for such outlandish behavior, and it won't be. They won't get the $33 million dollar disbursement... which I supposed we call "foreign aid". Fine with me. I don't think we should be sending taxpayer money to support any foreign governments.
    it seems you missed my point
    here is what was agreed:
    ... The U.S. government said that the 1866 treaty between the Cherokee tribe and the U.S. government guaranteed that the slaves were tribal citizens, whether or not they had a Cherokee blood relation. ...
    now, please identify for us how many of those black slaves are still living among the Cherokee tribe
    my guess is zero
    that aspect of the treaty was properly met by the tribe
    you - like the BIA - want that treaty to have agreed to things other than what was actually provided. i do not find any provision that the DECENDENTS of those slaves were to also enjoy classification as tribal members
    but as i offered before, i very much solicit your showing me where such language exists in that treaty
    if/when you do, i will re-evaluate my position
    until then, it appears the Cherokee nation is well within its sovereign rights, consistent with its treaty obligations, to find that the descendents of those identified black slaves, who are without Cherokee blood, are hereafter rightfully denied recognition as enrolled members of the Cherokee nation


    and no surprise that the federal government withholds that which it has agreed to provide to the Cherokee nation as a means to unilaterally revise its treaty obligations
    that is a very old practice
    our tribe has come to expect it
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Its different to expel people that have already been in the group for generations than to form a group based on race.
    The question then becomes (as has been stated several times)... "Are they really part of the group?" That's really the crux of the discussion at this point, and it's something that none of us can say with certainty.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it seems you missed my point
    here is what was agreed:
    now, please identify for us how many of those black slaves are still living among the Cherokee tribe
    my guess is zero
    that aspect of the treaty was properly met by the tribe
    you - like the BIA - want that treaty to have agreed to things other than what was actually provided. i do not find any provision that the DECENDENTS of those slaves were to also enjoy classification as tribal members
    but as i offered before, i very much solicit your showing me where such language exists in that treaty
    if/when you do, i will re-evaluate my position
    until then, it appears the Cherokee nation is well within its sovereign rights, consistent with its treaty obligations, to find that the descendents of those identified black slaves, who are without Cherokee blood, are hereafter rightfully denied recognition as enrolled members of the Cherokee nation


    and no surprise that the federal government withholds that which it has agreed to provide to the Cherokee nation as a means to unilaterally revise its treaty obligations
    that is a very old practice
    our tribe has come to expect it
    As usual, your reading comprehensive is selective. I suspected I'd be wasting my time trying to educate you with facts. I was right. It's a mistake I won't make again.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    As usual, your reading comprehensive is selective. I suspected I'd be wasting my time trying to educate you with facts. I was right. It's a mistake I won't make again.
    please
    i have repeatedly asked you for the facts
    show us the fact that the treaty provides for the descendents of the black slaves to now be found members of the Cherokee nation
    all i see from your post as your frustration of being unable to defend your position
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    The question then becomes (as has been stated several times)... "Are they really part of the group?" That's really the crux of the discussion at this point, and it's something that none of us can say with certainty.
    It may be their legal right, I don't know enough about Tribal law to say, but IMO including people for generations then booting them because of their race is no good.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Hmm, seems to me if the Cherokee signed a legal treaty giving the decendants of the Cherokee's black slaves tribal citizenship, then they are bound by that treaty and have to let their "Cherokee Freedmen" vote. If they violate the treaty, the the other signatory of the treaty, the USA, can now consider ALL covenants of that treaty, including the granting of sovereign Cherokee land, null and void.

    I don't think the Cherokee want to press Uncle Sam on this issue. They won't like the way it turns out.
    Regardless of what I think of this, I have to think that they would just laugh in the face of the government if they were told that they needed to honor their treaties.

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