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Thread: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    "Conquered people" and "Sovereign nations" are foreign terms to me. While I understand the benefits of slavery, I think it is wrong. I believe in liberty and that it is best to emancipate mankind and look for solutions that are better our lot rather than being parasitic dictators.
    Last edited by Antiderivative; 09-17-11 at 09:52 PM.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    the Cherokee nation gets to determine for itself what it considers enrolled tribal membership to be
    So the treaty doesn't matter to them? Okay. I'd like to take a peek at the entire treaty, to see what the USA gave the Cherokee in return for the promise of tribal membership to all black Cherokee slaves and their decendants. I mean, if the Cherokee... as a soverign nation... gets to ignore the treaty, then the USA... as a soverign nation... is free to do the same, yes?

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    "Conquered people" and "Sovereign nations" are foreign terms to me. While I understand the benefits of slavery, I think it is wrong. I believe in liberty and that it is best to emancipate mankind and look for solutions that are better our lot rather than being parasitic dictators.
    There are no societal benefits of slavery...i think most people here agree that slavery is ****ed up, so I'm really unsure as to the point of this post. What exactly is it you're trying to say?

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    So the treaty doesn't matter to them? Okay. I'd like to take a peek at the entire treaty, to see what the USA gave the Cherokee in return for the promise of tribal membership to all black Cherokee slaves and their decendants. I mean, if the Cherokee... as a soverign nation... gets to ignore the treaty, then the USA... as a soverign nation... is free to do the same, yes?
    the OP cite i read said the treaty provided for the recognition of the slaves to be identified as members of the tribe
    saw nothing which indicated that the descendents of those slaves would also expect to be recognized as tribal members
    but i welcome your showing me information which would evidence the treaty expressly intended those slave descendents to also be found members of the Cherokee tribe


    and again, there is more than a little irony about the federal government charging an Indian nation with violation of a treaty
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    I don't know why we continue to allow these indian "nations" anyway. When has another conquering society EVER allowed the conquered to maintain enclaves of their own society which are NOT required to follow the rules and laws of the conquering nation? That's just bad politics and military theory, boys and girls.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    So the treaty doesn't matter to them? Okay. I'd like to take a peek at the entire treaty, to see what the USA gave the Cherokee in return for the promise of tribal membership to all black Cherokee slaves and their decendants. I mean, if the Cherokee... as a soverign nation... gets to ignore the treaty, then the USA... as a soverign nation... is free to do the same, yes?
    US treaties are BS. We only obey to them when it is in our best interest. Unlike tyrants, I believe that Native Americans have the right to self-determination. Unfortunately, many Americans hate this American principle and use dumbass sophomoric analysis to justify atrocities.

    You are nothing but a redcoat and a King George lover.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    There are no societal benefits of slavery...i think most people here agree that slavery is ****ed up, so I'm really unsure as to the point of this post. What exactly is it you're trying to say?
    America was founded on self-determination, yet we will not grant this same principle to Native Americans.

    In my world, I call this hypocrisy.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    America was founded on self-determination, yet we will not grant this same principle to Native Americans.

    In my world, I call this hypocrisy.
    They do not need US tax payer money, reservations(Oklahoma has no reservations), and separate sovereignty for self-determination.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    America was founded on self-determination, yet we will not grant this same principle to Native Americans.

    In my world, I call this hypocrisy.
    America was founded by militarily defeating the British Empire. The Native Americans would have a lot more standing in my mind if they'd been willing to put aside their own differences and band together to drive the White Men off of their continent in the 17th Century. They didn't. Just like the Scots and the Irish, they were more interested in their own internal quarrels than in banding together to get rid of the bigger threat. In the end that cost them everything, or at least it should have.

    I have great respect for the traditions and society of the Native American tribes. However, I do have a major problem with the idea of allowing "foreign entitites" inside of our borders, whether they're Foreign Embassies/Consulates or the Native American Nations. In my mind these individuals should have been brought into the societal circle of AMERICANS and allowed to maintain their ethnic heritage just as the French, German, Irish, etc.... immigrants to this country have been.

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    Re: Cherokee Indians: We are free to oust blacks

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    the OP cite i read said the treaty provided for the recognition of the slaves to be identified as members of the tribe
    saw nothing which indicated that the descendents of those slaves would also expect to be recognized as tribal members
    but i welcome your showing me information which would evidence the treaty expressly intended those slave descendents to also be found members of the Cherokee tribe


    and again, there is more than a little irony about the federal government charging an Indian nation with violation of a treaty
    If you didn't bother to read the OP's link, I shouldn't have to bother to bring the pertinent passages to you. However, I shall do so.

    The U.S. government said that the 1866 treaty between the Cherokee tribe and the U.S. government guaranteed that the slaves were tribal citizens, whether or not they had a Cherokee blood relation.

    The African Americans lost their citizenship last month when the Cherokee Supreme Court voted to support the right of tribal members to change the tribe's constitution on citizenship matters.

    The change meant that Cherokee Freedmen who could not prove they have a Cherokee blood relation were no longer citizens, making them ineligible to vote in tribal elections or receive benefits.

    Besides pressure from the BIA to accept the 1866 Treaty as the law of the land, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development is withholding a $33 million disbursement to the tribe over the Freedmen controversy.

    Attorneys in a federal lawsuit in Washington are asking a judge to restore voting rights for the ousted Cherokee Freedmen in time for the September 24 tribal election for Principal Chief.
    What we have here is a treaty and Cherokee Law upheld for nearly 150 years recognizing 2,800 current Cherokee Freedmen, descendants of Cherokee African slaves, as tribal members suddenly being revoked when the Cherokee's decided to change their constitution, throwing out tribal members that could not prove they had Cherokee blood, and doing so to prevent them from voting in the next tribal election.

    It's kind of like if the SCOTUS decided to toss out that pesky "all men are equal" part of the USA constitution, then decide that no black in America could vote unless they could prove they had "white" blood in their veins.

    Which shows that the Cherokee nation is not above using law to promulgate racism, vote rigging, breaking international commitments, and corruption. Kinda like every other government on the planet. But certainly it should not be rewarded for such outlandish behavior, and it won't be. They won't get the $33 million dollar disbursement... which I supposed we call "foreign aid". Fine with me. I don't think we should be sending taxpayer money to support any foreign governments.
    Last edited by DiAnna; 09-17-11 at 10:19 PM.

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