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Thread: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    perhaps you can show me where we had a reduction of revenue?
    because I'm not seeing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post

    I know this is all still a ratio thingy above instead of actual numbers, but I thought that you may like to see the above graph which shows that the revenue decreased as a percentage of GDP. Of course, revenue may have actually increased less quickly than the GDP and we would get a similar graph.

    But I thought you might find the graph interesting and relevant to your point about the change in govt receipts. This indicates that there MAY have been a "reduction of revenue" that you are "not seeing."
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Revenue rises and falls with GDP, not tax rates. so, for example, we see in the last two recessions is when it has fallen raw, as opposed to merely as a % of GDP:


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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the percentage doesn't stay the same - it varies within a historical range of about 1-1.5%. The graphs point out that it doesn't matter what the income tax rates on the wealthy are - given a government of about 19-20% of GDP, you're going to get about 18.5-19.5% of GDP in revenue.
    I wasn't trying to say that the percentage stayed the same. I am making a point using a hypothetical "if." It's a point about the nature of using percentages to show increases or decreases in raw numbers.

    You offered the graph as evidence that the receipts had not fallen. However, since what you offered was not the data for the receipts themselves, but rather the ratio of the receipts to the GDP, the graph doesn't distinguish between changes to the GDP and changes to the receipts. As such, from the graph offered, we can't tell if receipts actually followed the pattern of the ratio, or if changes in the other variable in the ratio, GDP, had an impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    It seems to me, imho, that 9/12 is the same percentage as 3/4. But in the latter, the quantity is much lower. ymmv. Couldn't it be that the revenue as a percentage of GDP could remain more or less the same while actual revenue and GDP decrease? Am I mistaken about the math?
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    revenue goes up at roughly the same rate that GDP goes up, yes. dependent, again, on the relative size of government.
    So then we're agreed that 3/4 = 9/12 even though 3 is much less than 9 and 4 is less than 12?


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Maybe if we looked at a different statistic we could find something more illuminating about the net change in receipts. idk. What do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I would look to see a correlation between years of solid private sector growth and years of revenue increase, both in raw and whether or not it occurred as a share of GDP.
    Alternatively, we could examine the receipt data itself and see where and when it changed to see if there had or had not been a "reduction of revenue."
    Just a thought.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I wasn't trying to say that the percentage stayed the same. I am making a point using a hypothetical "if." It's a point about the nature of using percentages to show increases or decreases in raw numbers.

    You offered the graph as evidence that the receipts had not fallen. However, since what you offered was not the data for the receipts themselves, but rather the ratio of the receipts to the GDP, the graph doesn't distinguish between changes to the GDP and changes to the receipts. As such, from the graph offered, we can't tell if receipts actually followed the pattern of the ratio, or if changes in the other variable in the ratio, GDP, had an impact.
    as i recall, someone made the claim that changes to marginal tax rates had resulted in our deficits. as revenues did not drop with tax rates, this is incorrect - which is what I was attempting to show. someone responded by pointing out that revenues as a % of GDP had gone below the historical average lately, and so I pointed out that that is the typical response to an increase in the size of government - we have increased our government lately to a post-war high as a % of GDP, and so our revenues are at a post-war low as a % of GDP.

    So then we're agreed that 3/4 = 9/12 even though 3 is much less than 9 and 4 is less than 12?
    naturally - if you want a bigger slice, you have to grow the pie.

    Alternatively, we could examine the receipt data itself and see where and when it changed to see if there had or had not been a "reduction of revenue."

    Just a thought.
    at what points?

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Revenue rises and falls with GDP, not tax rates. so, for example, we see in the last two recessions is when it has fallen raw, as opposed to merely as a % of GDP:

    Revenue rises and falls with GDP, all things being equal. But changes in the tax rate are multipliers and also have a significant impact.

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Revenue rises and falls with GDP, all things being equal. But changes in the tax rate are multipliers and also have a significant impact.
    All this class warfare rhetoric! Are you really that jealous of someone who has more than you? This has to be an act on your part?

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    All this class warfare rhetoric! Are you really that jealous of someone who has more than you? This has to be an act on your part?
    What has class warfare or jealousy got to do with the fact that tax rates affect revenue?

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    What has class warfare or jealousy got to do with the fact that tax rates affect revenue?
    That is all you have been spouting for as long as I have seen you in this forum. Rates are a starting point but that is about it. What people pay is all that matters and right now the top 1% pay 38% of all FIT but that isn't enough. Still waiting for what the fair share is for the rich to pay? I guess everybody paying their fair share means that the rich have to pay more than 38% whereas 47% paying nothing is their fair share?

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    That is all you have been spouting for as long as I have seen you in this forum. Rates are a starting point but that is about it. What people pay is all that matters and right now the top 1% pay 38% of all FIT but that isn't enough. Still waiting for what the fair share is for the rich to pay? I guess everybody paying their fair share means that the rich have to pay more than 38% whereas 47% paying nothing is their fair share?
    All I said is that tax rates affect revenue. How does that involve jealousy or class warfare?

    As for the rest of it, did you ever ask yourself WHY so many aren't paying FIT? Perhaps you should think about it for a minute. You support policies that contribute to income disparity. Well, congratulations. The rich are richer, the poor are poorer, and the middle class is getting smaller and smaller. Now that the rich have so much of the country's wealth, of course they have to pay more in taxes. Duh.

    And of course many of the poor and middle class don't pay FIT because the taxes they would owe are cancelled out by the child tax credit, which was signed into law by Ronald Reagan.

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    Re: Boehner Asks Debt Panel to Take on Tax Breaks, Reject Hike

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    All I said is that tax rates affect revenue. How does that involve jealousy or class warfare?

    As for the rest of it, did you ever ask yourself WHY so many aren't paying FIT? Perhaps you should think about it for a minute. You support policies that contribute to income disparity. Well, congratulations. The rich are richer, the poor are poorer, and the middle class is getting smaller and smaller. Now that the rich have so much of the country's wealth, of course they have to pay more in taxes. Duh.

    And of course many of the poor and middle class don't pay FIT because the taxes they would owe are cancelled out by the child tax credit, which was signed into law by Ronald Reagan.
    As usual you miss the point, you are the one concerned about govt. revenue, you are the one calling for the rich to pay more, you are the one that believes we have a revenue problem, not me. I am pointing out that if you want revenue there is a place to get it other than going after the ones paying the most now.

    When did this country become one where a large group of people believe they are "entitled" to the income earned by others? still waiting for a definition of fair share which you continue to ignore? The only way to enact a fair share tax is with the flat tax or the consumption tax where everyone pays something and people are taxed on what they use. Progressive taxes create class warfare and envy which you show on every post. Tell me how much more of your income are you sending in that required? No one is stopping you, Buffet or anyone else from sending in more income if you feel we have a revenue problem.

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