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Thread: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    For one thing, your value judgment about the importance of my bank account relative to your well-being (whatever that means to you) is nothing more than your value judgment. The two do not have anything to do with one another, and your attitude does not give you access to my money.

    For another thing, why can't the public look out for its own interest by way of their conscious, rational decisions? Why does someone else have to make their decisions and do the advocating the way parents do for a child? Private enterprise and public interest go hand-in-hand, yet you paint them as competing forces. I guess that's because leftism assumes people cannot make their own best choices. Am I right?
    That's a bit unworkable in practice, don't you think? Say there's a need for a new highway interchange. What would you do? Have each individual build his or her own offramp, each according to his or her own preference?

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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Jacking up taxes on the rich has only made dem politicians wealthier and jacked up the deficit
    Absolutely true...

    The top drives the economy - always has, always will. Who forms companies, invests capital? Does the hiring/firing? Who pays the taxes that run the government, fund the military? Cut taxes to the middle class - ok, I have no problemo with that. It will usually result in modest gains in consumer spending and investment. But if you want to really get the economy going people, cut taxes on the top tier. Capital investments go up, job creation goes into overgear, wages rise, production soars. All else is nickle and dimes.

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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Absolutely true...

    The top drives the economy - always has, always will. Who forms companies, invests capital? Does the hiring/firing? Who pays the taxes that run the government, fund the military? Cut taxes to the middle class - ok, I have no problemo with that. It will usually result in modest gains in consumer spending and investment. But if you want to really get the economy going people, cut taxes on the top tier. Capital investments go up, job creation goes into overgear, wages rise, production soars. All else is nickle and dimes.
    So by your logic things should be MUCH better now, when the rich are paying an effective tax rate of about 17% than they were 20 years ago, when the top effective tax rate was around 26%? I'm not seeing it.

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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Absolutely true...

    The top drives the economy - always has, always will. Who forms companies, invests capital? Does the hiring/firing? Who pays the taxes that run the government, fund the military? Cut taxes to the middle class - ok, I have no problemo with that. It will usually result in modest gains in consumer spending and investment. But if you want to really get the economy going people, cut taxes on the top tier. Capital investments go up, job creation goes into overgear, wages rise, production soars. All else is nickle and dimes.
    How do you think we got to where we are NOW, dude?
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    It's simple math. More and more assets continue to roll uphill to the wealthy (that's how wealth works in this country) and more and more people are born every day. That's an increasing population having to deal with a decreasing amount of spreadable capital. I don't see the confusion.
    Ted Cruz is the dumbest person alive.

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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I didn't say that.

    I said the increase in poverty is related to the recession/depression. I also said that the programs we utilized to prevent increases in poverty did not work.

    Don't put words in my mouth simply because you don't like my argument. That's disingenuous and counter productive.
    Actually, the rate at which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer jumped significantly 30 some years ago. And the trend has been steadily downward or stagnant for the lower 80% since then. While the top quintiles wealth has increased almost exactly commensurately.

    The recent economic crisis is a spike in a downward, long term trend.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's a bit unworkable in practice, don't you think? Say there's a need for a new highway interchange. What would you do? Have each individual build his or her own offramp, each according to his or her own preference?
    I was not arguing absolutes, so finding one example of an agreeable government function doesn't show why any conceivable function is also okay.

    Bardo's example positioned his "well-being" against my bank account, which is quite the reckless disregard for private property. If a person cannot accumulate wealth to use to pursue a goal without someone (person or government) making a claim on it, citing their own personal welfare or "need," then what can a person ever really accomplish?

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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I was not arguing absolutes, so finding one example of an agreeable government function doesn't show why any conceivable function is also okay.
    I could list thousands of such examples.

    Bardo's example positioned his "well-being" against my bank account, which is quite the reckless disregard for private property. If a person cannot accumulate wealth to use to pursue a goal without someone (person or government) making a claim on it, citing their own personal welfare or "need," then what can a person ever really accomplish?
    I can't speak for him, but I don't think anyone is proposing that anyone should be prevented from accumulating wealth. OTOH, I think that it's in everone's interest to prevent gross imbalance in wealth accumulation such as we're seeing now, where 400 people control more wealth than the bottom 50% of the people in the the country.

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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I could list thousands of such examples.
    I'm sure you could find more things you think are good examples than I could.

    OTOH, I think that it's in everone's interest to prevent gross imbalance in wealth accumulation such as we're seeing now, where 400 people control more wealth than the bottom 50% of the people in the the country.
    If it's in everyone's interest, why don't they adjust their consumptive behaviors accordingly, so as not to continuously reward the largest, richest and most powerful producers of goods and services in the nation and world? Because they're too lazy to do that. In the short-term (which is where most people seek gratification) it's actually in each individual's best interest to maximize his pleasure for the lowest immediate cost. Very few people spend significantly more money supporting local or regional goods and services whenever there's a lower cost alternative.

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    Re: U.S. Poverty Climbed to 17-Year High in 2010

    If it's in everyone's interest, why don't they adjust their consumptive behaviors accordingly, so as not to continuously reward the largest, richest and most powerful producers of goods and services in the nation and world? Because they're too lazy to do that. In the short-term (which is where most people seek gratification) it's actually in each individual's best interest to maximize his pleasure for the lowest immediate cost. Very few people spend significantly more money supporting local or regional goods and services whenever there's a lower cost alternative.
    You got it. It's the Tragedy of the Commons problem. If everyone cooperated, everyone would be better off. But by and large each individual won't cooperate unless there's some assurance that others will do the same. That's what government is for: to provide that mechanism and assurance.

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