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Thread: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I actually spend a great deal of time in the third world, or did until very recently, and they are becoming very aware on the environment also. If not there are plenty of foreigners who will be quick to point out any sins of omission or commission. No company can operate in a vacuum anymore, anywhere.

    The idea that these American companies (or companies from any country) can just come in and ride rough shod over the locals is simply not true. In fact local people will stand in line for days to try and get work for a foreign owned company because they know that, far more often than not, they'll be treated far more fairly, with better working conditions and benefits than any local company will ever provide. You're just repeating a common fallacy.

    And the US has become so concerned about possible oil spills, despite the high technology in place to prevent and contain such events, that they are refusing an oil pipeline from Canada which would mean over 20,000 permanent jobs and a guarantees for the future.

    Seeking third world status and living conditions might be a Leftists dream but why should those with money in their pockets, at least for the moment, contribute to it? And you ask why companies and people are leaving?
    They may be, but it is a fact that we are paying less attention ourselves eslewhere and business is going to where they can be less careful. And roughshod is your word, not mine. You don't have to runroughshod over a willing partner. The fact is, we are doing damage and don't have to worry as much about it as they would here. You know this is true.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Nope, they benefit more. I thought you said you understood that. They benefit more from government.

    And you can be wise, frugal, and prudent, and still have people pay their fair share.
    Please explain how they are benefiting from government moreso than anyone else.

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    What is the tax on the dividends that stock bonus pay out when they are held for a couple of years?
    If you buy the stock and then hold it for more than a year then you would be correct that people pay 15%. But remember that the clock starts when you actually lay out the cash for the stock. So most execs just exercise and sell in the same motion ( same day), ordinary income. Also remember that if you exercise, buy the stock and the stock then goes down, not only do you lose money but as you know taxes are paid on all gains ( different rates long or short term) but you can only take a tax deduction of up to $3K in any one year for any losses you incur.

    I am not saying that execs are not highly and in many cases overpaid. Just that there are more complicated facts around the tax treatment than I think many people understand.

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    If you buy the stock and then hold it for more than a year then you would be correct that people pay 15%. But remember that the clock starts when you actually lay out the cash for the stock. So most execs just exercise and sell in the same motion ( same day), ordinary income. Also remember that if you exercise, buy the stock and the stock then goes down, not only do you lose money but as you know taxes are paid on all gains ( different rates long or short term) but you can only take a tax deduction of up to $3K in any one year for any losses you incur.

    I am not saying that execs are not highly and in many cases overpaid. Just that there are more complicated facts around the tax treatment than I think many people understand.
    it's not just execs who have cap gains. i'll bet most of the very wealthy do as well.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    It was posted as my opinion, as per the question mark at the end, which in your zeal to get in a dig failed to notice.
    The question mark followed "eh".

    When I was young and naïve I wondered how/why someone could become brainwashed. Fox News and the rightwing sound machines sure showed it could be done on a massive scale eh?
    Now, to make it clear, are you saying that "Fox News and the rightwing sound machines" are showing that brainwashing can be done on a massive scale, or are you just inquiring whether such a thing is possible? Would you be making the same inquiry re NPR, MSNBC, the New York Times, etc, or is your curiosity limited to just Fox News and sound machines?
    But i on the other-hand noticed that your statement that "It's always easy for third parties to determine what's 'fair' when it involves other people's money "has nary a question mark in it.
    Isn't a third party, aka, Barrack Obama, claiming that he knows what "fair" is? As well, many of his supporters will make the same claim, though they are actually quite fuzzy on what those percentages might be.

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Please explain how they are benefiting from government moreso than anyone else.
    it's been shown before. let me give you some links to read, though you could do your own search.

    4 Ways Government Policy Favors the Rich and Keeps the Rest of Us Poor
    While most Americans struggle in the face of the recession, the rich are enjoying the benefits of policies that redistribute wealth upward--and crying class war if we complain.

    4 Ways Government Policy Favors the Rich and Keeps the Rest of Us Poor | | AlterNet

    Wealthy benefit most from tax subsidies: study

    Wealthy benefit most from tax subsidies: study | Reuters

    The rich rely on the governments to provide a major share (C) of both these - physical and social/economic - infrastructure. The rely on private provisioning only where governments fail. In contrast, the poor rely mostly on private provisioning of all infrastructure (A) and have a limited uptake of public infrastructure (B). The intensity of government provisioning of both types of infrastructure is much more in cities than villages, where most of the poor live. Even in case of the urban poor, they work mostly in the un-organized sector and transact in the parallel un-regulated economy.

    So, despite the very evident benefits that the rich derive from the role of governments, why are they and the middle class the most vocal critics of governments? Why do they want to down-size the very agency whose activities underpin their own success? There are obviously many reasons, ideological and non-ideological. However, I have three fundamental explanations that come to mind

    Urbanomics: How the rich and poor benefit from government

    9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes
    9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    If you buy the stock and then hold it for more than a year then you would be correct that people pay 15%. But remember that the clock starts when you actually lay out the cash for the stock. So most execs just exercise and sell in the same motion ( same day), ordinary income. Also remember that if you exercise, buy the stock and the stock then goes down, not only do you lose money but as you know taxes are paid on all gains ( different rates long or short term) but you can only take a tax deduction of up to $3K in any one year for any losses you incur.

    I am not saying that execs are not highly and in many cases overpaid. Just that there are more complicated facts around the tax treatment than I think many people understand.


    True, but the top executives of the S and P averaged over $ ten mill in bonuses in 2010; its not like they would have to take the stock out for their children’s braces.And if they started dumping the stock the day after they got it…
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    it's not just execs who have cap gains. i'll bet most of the very wealthy do as well.
    If you had read what I was responding to you would see it was about exec compensation. When you start talking about "wealthy" that becomes an interesting term. Is someone who is retired and has a million dollars in the bank because they sold a house in California before the crash "wealthy". Someone who is retired, living off social security and has a million in the bank that he/she puts into 10 year treasuries will earn about $20K on that. Add that to $20-25K from social security and you call that wealthy?

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    True, but the top executives of the S and P averaged over $ ten mill in bonuses in 2010; its not like they would have to take the stock out for their children’s braces.And if they started dumping the stock the day after they got it…
    Look, I am not asking to take up a collection for CEOs. Just trying to point out that the bonus income is taxed at the highest marginal rate, not the long term capital gains rate that you presumed. Sorry if the facts do not fit a partisan position. I thought you just had the facts wrong, thus my response. If you just want a political argument rather than deal in fact I probably should not have responded in the first place.

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    Re: Obama Seeks to End Tax Breaks to Pay for Jobs Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    If you had read what I was responding to you would see it was about exec compensation. When you start talking about "wealthy" that becomes an interesting term. Is someone who is retired and has a million dollars in the bank because they sold a house in California before the crash "wealthy". Someone who is retired, living off social security and has a million in the bank that he/she puts into 10 year treasuries will earn about $20K on that. Add that to $20-25K from social security and you call that wealthy?
    my apologies. no, not wealthy, but certainly not poor. but their taxes won't go up either.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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