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Thread: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Generally speaking, it is the business of gov't guaranteed loans to provide money to businesses that would otherwise be unable to obtain it via usual commercial lending.

    Now that I've aired that well-known fact, the only thing the detractors have to work with is that the loan was supposedly restructured to put private investors ahead of the gov't (taxpayers). There is perhaps some usable scandal in that, if the right can resist their inherent impulse to contaminate their case with hyperbole.
    I certainly hope it's not the sort of hyperbole that suggested Dwight Eisenhower felt the reason for the Iraq War was in order to make money for Haliburton.
    Government should not be in the loan guaranteeing business.

    The possibility that this practice might lead to bad loans, risky ventures, vast bureaucratization, crony capitalism or wide-spread corruption, seems to have been overlooked by the leftists.

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I certainly hope it's not the sort of hyperbole that suggested Dwight Eisenhower felt the reason for the Iraq War was in order to make money for Haliburton.
    Government should not be in the loan guaranteeing business.

    The possibility that this practice might lead to bad loans, risky ventures, vast bureaucratization, crony capitalism or wide-spread corruption, seems to have been overlooked by the leftists.
    You can't simultaneously be mad at Obama for not making more private sectors jobs and at the same time be mad at him for efforts to create private sector jobs. You gotta pick one.

    Now, in general, I think government loans to businesses should be very rare and only used when there is a really strong justification. But this is a two-fer. Developing a strong renewable energy sector is absolutely crucial to our national interests and we're in the midst of an unemployment problem. I think that loans to stimulate growth and hiring in the renewable energy sector right now is about the strongest case you're ever going to see for government loans to private companies. If our economy was booming, I would oppose it. If the loans were going to just random businesses, I would oppose it. But when you have both those interests aligned and you're both getting the immediate return of jobs today and securing our economic prospects for tomorrow, I think that's a good investment. Does it carry risk? Of course. It's an emerging market. That's the whole point, to push the boundary and get out in front. That means some of the companies will go bankrupt, but some of them will become the next generation's GE. That's just how it works. You don't win every bet you put down on the table, but if you're betting on the right sector, you win in the long run, and renewable energy is clearly the right sector.

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You're playing silly games.

    You're a giraffe
    No I'm not
    Then why are you denying it?

    It's just weird koolaide drinker thinking. You assume the only reason somebody would deny something is because it is true, when obviously that is not a logical conclusion.
    I said no such thing. I said that if it's nothing you have no reason to try and explain it.

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I said no such thing. I said that if it's nothing you have no reason to try and explain it.
    You're a giraffe
    No I'm not
    Then why are you denying it?

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's a policy question. You're certainly free to say no. I would say no in most situations, but I think renewable energy is such an essential national interest that it is worth taking some risks. Either way, that's not a scandal. That isn't unethical or something. It's just a policy disagreement.
    It most certainly is NOT a policy question. Is it a policy question if a Republican Senator channels 1/2 billion dollars to a company with majority ownership from a major campaign contributor that has already been declared a failure by a respectable accounting firm??? Is it a policy question if the government rules that the majority ownership, including the aforementioned major campaign contributor gets their money back before taxpayers??? Is it a policy question if the company ownership, including the aforementioned major campaign contributor make 20 trips to plead their case??

    Here's the facts:

    1. Solyndra asked the Bush administration for money but were turned down.
    2. Solyndra wanted to go public to increase capital because they were bleeding money faster than they could find it.
    3. A review was required before the public offering. PriceWaterhouseCooper concluded that “The company has suffered recurring losses from operations, negative cash flows since inception, and has a net stockholders’ deficit,”
    4. Obama campaign contributors pleaded with the administration to bail them out in multiple visits to the White House.
    5. Obama game them the $500 million loan guarantee.
    6. The OMB recommended immediate liquidation because that would net the taxpayers $175 million more than if the company was restructured.
    7. Obama ignored the OMB and proceeded with restructuring.
    8. Resulting in his campaign contributors being given priority over taxpayers in recouping their money.

    It is the duty of government officials and employees to protect taxpayers' money. Obama and his minions protected their campaign contributors.

    This WILL turn into a major scandal and could be the end for him. There's also another scandal brewing about one of his contributors trying to market a system that interfered with gps signals and the administration tried to talk a general into lying about its affects.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You can't simultaneously be mad at Obama for not making more private sectors jobs and at the same time be mad at him for efforts to create private sector jobs. You gotta pick one.
    I'm not mad at him at all. He is clearly incompetent, of questionable character, and in a situation well over his head. But it was a majority of the American people who voted for him, a man of no worthwhile experience whatsoever, who bear the ultimate blame for electing him. What could they seriously expect?
    Now, in general, I think government loans to businesses should be very rare and only used when there is a really strong justification.
    I can not ever see justification.

    But this is a two-fer. Developing a strong renewable energy sector is absolutely crucial to our national interests and we're in the midst of an unemployment problem.
    The private sector has been working on the problem, just as they have always done. Why should they get money from the government when, if they are successful, they will be justifiably be rewarded for their efforts?

    I think that loans to stimulate growth and hiring in the renewable energy sector right now is about the strongest case you're ever going to see for government loans to private companies. If our economy was booming, I would oppose it. If the loans were going to just random businesses, I would oppose it. But when you have both those interests aligned and you're both getting the immediate return of jobs today and securing our economic prospects for tomorrow, I think that's a good investment. Does it carry risk? Of course. It's an emerging market. That's the whole point, to push the boundary and get out in front. That means some of the companies will go bankrupt, but some of them will become the next generation's GE. That's just how it works. You don't win every bet you put down on the table, but if you're betting on the right sector, you win in the long run, and renewable energy is clearly the right sector.
    That's great in theory and I've heard that well meaning argument hundreds of times, but inevitable greed, corrupton, and cronyism comes into play. Thats just what 'free' government money does. It has a corrupting influence on all society when its being doled out by bureacracies to political favorites and oet causes.

    Naturally if you are not going to drill for oil or build pipelines, there is going to be an energy crisis looming but it will be of your own making. There is no reason why looking for alternative sources for energy and drilling for oil and building pipelines can't be dome simultaneously.

    I tend to be suspicious of this 'energy crisis' thing anyway, and that it is largely being manufactured. We can see already that millions of dollars, borrowed dollars, with nothing to show for it, has changed hands. Just grand announcements and then disillusionment.

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post

    This WILL turn into a major scandal and could be the end for him. There's also another scandal brewing about one of his contributors trying to market a system that interfered with gps signals and the administration tried to talk a general into lying about its affects.
    While what you say is absolutely true but it is unlikely that the mainstream media will report this at any great length. And his fans will support him no matter what he does.

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    While what you say is absolutely true but it is unlikely that the mainstream media will report this at any great length. And his fans will support him no matter what he does.
    As the media has reported this now, as it is warranted, there is no reason to believe they won't report any findings. Now, you may HOPE it is more, but no one can honestly report that it is more until it actually is. But don't worry, political entertainers are all to often willing to make the leaps you want and you are quite free to eat that up.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I'm not mad at him at all. He is clearly incompetent
    Well, whatever you want to call it. You can't simultaneously argue that not creating jobs is incompetence and at the same time argue that creating jobs is incompetence. You need to pick one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The private sector has been working on the problem, just as they have always done. Why should they get money from the government when, if they are successful, they will be justifiably be rewarded for their efforts?
    The private sector isn't the right tool for all tasks. Private companies look at next quarter profits almost exclusively. Sometimes particularly long sighted ones look a year out. Renewable energy returns are farther out than that, so the private sector isn't as interested as the opportunity merits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's great in theory and I've heard that well meaning argument hundreds of times, but inevitable greed, corrupton, and cronyism comes into play. Thats just what 'free' government money does. It has a corrupting influence on all society when its being doled out by bureacracies to political favorites and oet causes.
    Can I ask, were you proportionally more upset by the money given to Halliburton and KBR? They had a much, much, closer tie to the administration and received radically more money. And that money was in the form of no-bid contracts instead of loans, which is obviously much worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I tend to be suspicious of this 'energy crisis' thing anyway, and that it is largely being manufactured. We can see already that millions of dollars, borrowed dollars, with nothing to show for it, has changed hands. Just grand announcements and then disillusionment.
    The views of scientists and experts are a more reliable source of information than the gut feelings of a poster on the internet with no actual information about the topic, so your suspicion doesn't change my views.

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    Re: Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Solyndra asked the Bush administration for money but were turned down.
    Indeed. The Bush administrations abject failure to tackle what is obviously the primary problem we need to be addressing over the next 20 years if we're going to remain a first world country is appalling. They did practically nothing to progress towards a solution despite the fact that the clock is rapidly ticking down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    2. Solyndra wanted to go public to increase capital because they were bleeding money faster than they could find it.
    3. A review was required before the public offering. PriceWaterhouseCooper concluded that “The company has suffered recurring losses from operations, negative cash flows since inception, and has a net stockholders’ deficit,”
    4. Obama campaign contributors pleaded with the administration to bail them out in multiple visits to the White House.
    5. Obama game them the $500 million loan guarantee.
    6. The OMB recommended immediate liquidation because that would net the taxpayers $175 million more than if the company was restructured.
    7. Obama ignored the OMB and proceeded with restructuring.
    8. Resulting in his campaign contributors being given priority over taxpayers in recouping their money.
    I don't think you understand the purpose here. This wasn't a money making gambit for the federal government... The government is trying to push renewable energy along FASTER than the market would on its own. Just behaving like a private sector investment firm obviously wouldn't accomplish that, right?

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