Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

RiverDad · Sep 12, 2011

theplaydrive said:
Like I said, data doesn't work without context and your "context" is incomplete. Answer these questions and you'll be able to understand the gaps in your context:

1. Why do black Americans who immigrate to other countries do well?
2. Why do people, including black Americans, emigrate/immigrate?

#1 - Show me the evidence that has informed your opinion on issue #1 and I'll respond to you.
#2 - How the **** would I know? Why do Chinese-Americans immigrate to Denmark? Why do Russian Americans immigrate to New Zealand? Everyone has a reason.

RiverDad · Sep 12, 2011

How are blacks doing in Canada, the enlightened land that didn't have all of the racial baggage that the US had and which had a miniscule black population until recently and which has socialized medical care for everyone?

This paper examines the importance of collecting and reporting data on race and ethnicity in public health and biomedical research in Canada. Literature and available statistics related to social determinants of health were reviewed and analyzed to illustrate that minority populations in Canada, especially Blacks, are likely to experience poorer health outcomes. Statistics Canada in its commitment to multiculturalism uses broad categories such as visible minorities and racialised groups as surrogates for race and ethnicity. These categories, when used in health literature may conceal underlying inequities in health between population groups. Blacks and minority groups in Canada have higher rates of unemployment, lower rates of educational attainment, and lower socioeconomic status. Whenever Canadian data based on race and ethnic categories are reported, disparities are observed. The lack of disaggregated data may hide health disparities.

Impressive as Canada’s ranking may appear, it would be misleading to assume or think that the improved quality of life is uniformly shared or equally enjoyed by all. The reality and daily-lived experiences of African Canadians paint a very different portrait – a non-flattering one of extreme and disparate poverty, inequality, racism, and general socio-economic insecurity and deprivation. For the most part, African Canadians are outsiders to the Canadian success stories that are depicted in the UNDP’s Human Development Reports and in Canada’s fourth and fifth periodic reports to the Committee.3

The harsh reality is that most African Canadians exist at the lowest rung of Canada’s economic and social ladder.4 The lived experiences of African Canadians sharply contrast with the Canada the world knows – a First World paradise. In this First World there is a nonspatial Third World populated mostly by indigenous peoples, and African Canadians, who remain trapped in historical patterns of racialized poverty. The poverty rate for African Canadians is three times the average for White Canadians.

Now this is in a country that purposely opened itself up to black immigration and chose these black immigrants and invited them to become Canadians.

apdst · Sep 12, 2011

AdamT said:
It's also true that immigrants tend to be higher achievers than those who stayed at home. It takes some guts and hard work, and some capital, to pick yourself up and move halfway around the world to pursue better opportunities abroad.

What's really scary, is that you probably don't even understand the importance of that post.

ThePlayDrive · Sep 12, 2011

RiverDad said:
#1 - Show me the evidence that has informed your opinion on issue #1 and I'll respond to you.
#2 - How the **** would I know? Why do Chinese-Americans immigrate to Denmark? Why do Russian Americans immigrate to New Zealand? Everyone has a reason.

Let's just cut this short.

People immigrate for more opportunity, particularly when they come to the United States. This means at least two things: they are some of the most driven of their homeland and they perceive the US as a place where they can succeed. It can, and often does, mean other things including a strong network of support, historical emphasis on education/success and personal attention (Vietnamese immigrants specifically were given this as was pointed out by BWG). So the immigrant population is filled with those of the most drive, positive perception of the US, strong support, historical emphasis on education/success and personal attention aimed at increasing chances of success. These are all things that many poor black Americans do not have, but that Vietnamese immigrants did have. This the context you're missing.

RiverDad said:
How are blacks doing in Canada, the enlightened land that didn't have all of the racial baggage that the US had and which had a miniscule black population until recently and which has socialized medical care for everyone?
...
Now this is in a country that purposely opened itself up to black immigration and chose these black immigrants and invited them to become Canadians.

Is this supposed to be a broad statement about blacks? I hope not since Nigerian Americans have the highest level of education in our country.

ric27 · Sep 12, 2011

theplaydrive said:
Nigerian Americans have the highest level of education in our country.

Why is that? Is it because better learning starts at home? Literally. Grass roots.

Maybe if they turn off the TV (everyone), set limits on computer time and video game time (everyone), read more, value and participate educational experiences as a family. Maybe, the Nigerians go over their kid's homework and actively participate in their education. Maybe, they ask questions.

If a kid is not good at something, taking extra time to practice that skill or have them spend time with a tutor until they get better.

WTF? It ain't hard

RiverDad · Sep 12, 2011

theplaydrive said:
People immigrate for more opportunity, particularly when they come to the United States. This means at least two things: they are some of the most driven of their homeland and they perceive the US as a place where they can succeed. It can, and often does, mean other things including a strong network of support, historical emphasis on education/success and personal attention (Vietnamese immigrants specifically were given this as was pointed out by BWG). So the immigrant population is filled with those of the most drive, positive perception of the US, strong support, historical emphasis on education/success and personal attention aimed at increasing chances of success. These are all things that many poor black Americans do not have, but that Vietnamese immigrants did have. This the context you're missing.

A nice sprinkling of facts which lead to a faulty conclusion. Refugees fleeing a communist take-over, persecution and death are not in the same category as highly driven immigrants.

Is this supposed to be a broad statement about blacks? I hope not since Nigerian Americans have the highest level of education in our country.

Yes, it is a broad statement on blacks. It doesn't say anything about a particular black person and there are very many such people of high accomplishment. What it does say is that there is not a worldwide conspiracy to keep black people down. The problems are internal to the group, not externally imposed on them.

The Canadian example is a good one. Canadians are very sanctimonious about their liberal attitudes, especially when it comes to a comparison with the US. There was plenty of commentary during the 20th Century from Canadians directed towards America about how non-racist the Canadians were and they went so far as to be the first country to adopt Multiculturalism as state policy. They were so damn sure of their good will and their superior attitudes towards race that they set out to show the Americans how to create a diverse society without all of the baggage that the Americans inflicted upon themselves by harboring their deeply seated racist attitudes. Canada set out to recruit black people as immigrants. The very process that you highlighted above was in play - these immigrants were screened and selected and, lo and behold, the outcomes in Canada mirror those in the US.

The Canadian experience is very telling. All those white Canadians eager to show the Americans how to construct a multiracial society without racism and, even with a socialized medical system and more generous social welfare programs, the disparities in income and health outcomes mirror those in the US.

BTW, you based your argument on the fact that African Americans who emigrate from the US do very well in their new countries. I would very much like to see the evidence for your claim. I'm highly skeptical of your claim. Please disabuse me of my skepticism by providing evidence for your claim.

AdamT · Sep 12, 2011

RiverDad said:
A nice sprinkling of facts which lead to a faulty conclusion. Refugees fleeing a communist take-over, persecution and death are not in the same category as highly driven immigrants.

You think Vietnamese immigration ended in 1975?

apdst · Sep 12, 2011

AdamT said:
You think Vietnamese immigration ended in 1975?

Actually, it started in 1975.

AdamT · Sep 12, 2011

apdst said:
Actually, it started in 1975.

That's right, most Vietnamese immigrants have come here since 1990, and most of them aren't political refugees. About half of them came here as a result of having relatives who were U.S. citizens. "Vietnamese immigrant men were less likely to participate in the civilian labor force than foreign-born men overall."

Migration Information Source - Vietnamese Immigrants in the United States

RiverDad · Sep 12, 2011

AdamT said:
You think Vietnamese immigration ended in 1975?

Can you ever contribute anything of substance to a conversation or are you some type of Turing Machine designed to just throw out comments that kind of look coherent? Where did I ever suggest that Vietnamese immigration ended in 1975? The Vietnamese refugee flow didn't stop in 1975, that was only the first wave of many. We accepted refugees until 1994 and it was only in 2005 that legal immigration procedures were instituted.

AdamT · Sep 12, 2011

RiverDad said:
Can you ever contribute anything of substance to a conversation or are you some type of Turing Machine designed to just throw out comments that kind of look coherent? Where did I ever suggest that Vietnamese immigration ended in 1975? The Vietnamese refugee flow didn't stop in 1975, that was only the first wave of many. We accepted refugees until 1994 and it was only in 2005 that legal immigration procedures were instituted.

I know it hurts when I bust your flimsy assertions, but man up and deal with it. Most Vietnamese immigrants are not political refugees.

ThePlayDrive · Sep 12, 2011

RiverDad said:
A nice sprinkling of facts which lead to a faulty conclusion. Refugees fleeing a communist take-over, persecution and death are not in the same category as highly driven immigrants.

I was actually talking specifically about the Vietnamese refugees that you've been referencing and yes those refugees had strong community support, personal/individualized attention from the US government aimed at helping them succeed, an optimistic view of the United States, a historical tradition of education/success and yes, they also had drive as evidenced by the high risk many of them took leaving Vietnam.

Yes, it is a broad statement on blacks.

The fact that African/Nigerian immigrants have the highest levels of education in the United States makes whatever point you're trying to make irrelevant.

BTW, you based your argument on the fact that African Americans who emigrate from the US do very well in their new countries. I would very much like to see the evidence for your claim. I'm highly skeptical of your claim. Please disabuse me of my skepticism by providing evidence for your claim.

Actually, I based my argument on the fact that you don't understand context - which you really don't at all, but I can't find the study which I read in college anyway so the point is irrelevant.

In conclusion, Vietnamese refugees to the US had several circumstances that black Americans do not have. You're ignoring them which makes it that much easier to disregard everything that you say.

apdst · Sep 13, 2011

AdamT said:
I know it hurts when I bust your flimsy assertions, but man up and deal with it. Most Vietnamese immigrants are not political refugees.

There's no way they're escaping a brutal Communist dictatorship.

RiverDad · Sep 13, 2011

AdamT said:
I know it hurts when I bust your flimsy assertions, but man up and deal with it. Most Vietnamese immigrants are not political refugees.

Now we see how you operate. Earlier you said that you hold your positions because you've thought them through and researched them in detail.

Let me hold your ass to the fire and show everyone exactly how you define "well thought out and researched positions."

Number of Foreign Born Vietnamese in the US= 1,117,800

The US took in an initial surge of 125,000 Vietnamese refugees in 1975.
Between 1975 and 1980 and additional 120,000 Vietnamese were in the US, the majority of this population gain likely attributable to intake of refugees rather than from births in America.
The US operated the Orderly Departure Program to process Vietnamese refugees between 1980 and 1994 and this program processed 531,310 refugees.

All together, the US accepted 823,000 refugees.

About half of them came here as a result of having relatives who were U.S. citizens.

From your own damn source. Read these things before you spout off and show everyone you're an ignoramus:

Almost half of Vietnamese-born lawful permanent residents in 2007 were admitted as the immediate relatives of US citizens. Of the 28,691 Vietnamese born granted LPR status in 2007, 48.7 percent (13,974) were immediate relatives of US citizens, 43.3 percent (12,430) were family-sponsored immigrants, and 6.2 percent (1,768) were refugees and asylees.

Of the 1,117,800 foreign born Vietnamese in the US, all of the immigration in the 70s, 80s and 90s was characterized by the refugee flight from Vietnam. Family members of American citizens were noted but that didn't mean that they weren't qualified as refugees under the ODP. How on Earth do you figure that "Most Vietnamese immigrants are not political refugees" when there were 776,000 Vietnamese (823,000 Indochinese) refugees who were accepted into the US?

You misread the characterization of the immigrant categories for 2007 and believed that that characterization applied to all Vietnamese immigrants accepted into the US since the 1970s. This misunderstanding highlights for us all your ignorance on this topic because anyone who had even rudimentary knowledge of the issue would have recognized that your claim didn't make sense.

Here's some helpful advice for you - don't jump onto the internet and do a quick read on a topic and then posture like you're a ****ing expert on the topic or you'll always have your ass handed to you. So far, we've determined that you have no knowledge of scientific method (from an earlier debate) and now we know that you knew jack-**** about the history of Vietnamese immigration to the US.

RiverDad · Sep 13, 2011

theplaydrive said:
I was actually talking specifically about the Vietnamese refugees that you've been referencing and yes those refugees had strong community support, personal/individualized attention from the US government aimed at helping them succeed, an optimistic view of the United States, a historical tradition of education/success and yes, they also had drive as evidenced by the high risk many of them took leaving Vietnam.

The Vietnamese were a hugely unpopular group immigrant group in the US. The support they had came from very specific sectors of society. African Americans have a far broader base of support in addition to specific government programs working on their behalf.

Your reference to a historical tradition of education/success is just you relying on stereotypes. The first wave of Vietnamese to arrive were the elite of South Vietnam, so they would fit your description, but the later waves of refugees were far down scale.

However, ad arguendo, if their success in America relative to African Americans is due to their "historical tradition of education/success" then it's time that African Americans developed that same damn " tradition of education/success" and then they too should experience a better path towards upward mobility.

Your whole model of self-selective immigration, where the most capable and those with high levels of drive are the ones who immigrate doesn't apply to refugees. Refugees flee their country because they don't want to be killed, tortured, reeducated, jailed or persecuted. If those conditions weren't imposed on them, most would stay and live their lives in the country of their birth. You don't need a lot of ambition and drive to flee for your life.

The fact that African/Nigerian immigrants have the highest levels of education in the United States makes whatever point you're trying to make irrelevant.

You citing a fact doesn't make an argument. I've already noted the achievement of African immigrants in the US in previous threads and it's because of the very process that you're trying to impose on the Vietnamese refugees - these are the selective few. This is the brain drain from Africa to the US - their brightest leave there and come here. That tells us NOTHING about the rest of the African population nor of the African-American population.

I can plainly see your fingernails clawing into the disintegrating raft as you hang on for dear life as your model of the world doesn't hang together and so you throw out feeble arguments whenever you can in order to deflect the onslaught of evidence and reason which is tearing your tattered raft apart.

I can't find the study which I read in college anyway so the point is irrelevant.

As I expected, a "Dog ate my homework" excuse.

AdamT · Sep 13, 2011

RiverDad said:
Now we see how you operate. Earlier you said that you hold your positions because you've thought them through and researched them in detail.

Let me hold your ass to the fire and show everyone exactly how you define "well thought out and researched positions."

Number of Foreign Born Vietnamese in the US= 1,117,800

The US took in an initial surge of 125,000 Vietnamese refugees in 1975.
Between 1975 and 1980 and additional 120,000 Vietnamese were in the US, the majority of this population gain likely attributable to intake of refugees rather than from births in America.
The US operated the Orderly Departure Program to process Vietnamese refugees between 1980 and 1994 and this program processed 531,310 refugees.

All together, the US accepted 823,000 refugees.

From your own damn source. Read these things before you spout off and show everyone you're an ignoramus:

Almost half of Vietnamese-born lawful permanent residents in 2007 were admitted as the immediate relatives of US citizens. Of the 28,691 Vietnamese born granted LPR status in 2007, 48.7 percent (13,974) were immediate relatives of US citizens, 43.3 percent (12,430) were family-sponsored immigrants, and 6.2 percent (1,768) were refugees and asylees.

Of the 1,117,800 foreign born Vietnamese in the US, all of the immigration in the 70s, 80s and 90s was characterized by the refugee flight from Vietnam. Family members of American citizens were noted but that didn't mean that they weren't qualified as refugees under the ODP. How on Earth do you figure that "Most Vietnamese immigrants are not political refugees" when there were 776,000 Vietnamese (823,000 Indochinese) refugees who were accepted into the US?

You misread the characterization of the immigrant categories for 2007 and believed that that characterization applied to all Vietnamese immigrants accepted into the US since the 1970s. This misunderstanding highlights for us all your ignorance on this topic because anyone who had even rudimentary knowledge of the issue would have recognized that your claim didn't make sense.

Here's some helpful advice for you - don't jump onto the internet and do a quick read on a topic and then posture like you're a ****ing expert on the topic or you'll always have your ass handed to you. So far, we've determined that you have no knowledge of scientific method (from an earlier debate) and now we know that you knew jack-**** about the history of Vietnamese immigration to the US.

Wow, what a brilliantly pompous, and yet inaccurate report! You must have gotten an C in Wikipedia last year. :lol:

I see you linked to the Wikipedia page for your assertion that "Between 1975 and 1980 and additional 120,000 Vietnamese were in the US" ... "likely attributable to intake of refugees". In other words, you have no support for your assumption that they were refugees, and thus no support for your naked assertion that the US accepted 823,000 refugees. Of course you're also relying on numbers that are at least five years old. It's a shame that, as usual, you overplayed your hand. I'm willing to concede that close to half (mas o menos) of the Vietnamese are refugees. I take my hat off to the Wikipedia expert on Vietnamese immigration. :2rofll:

RiverDad · Sep 13, 2011

AdamT said:
I see you linked to the Wikipedia page for your assertion that "Between 1975 and 1980 and additional 120,000 Vietnamese were in the US" ... "likely attributable to intake of refugees". In other words, you have no support for your assumption that they were refugees, and thus no support for your naked assertion that the US accepted 823,000 refugees.

The US only accepted 650 Vietnamese immigrants between 1950 and 1974. Then came the first wave of refugees, a 125,000. There was no legal emigration from Vietnam in the immediate post-75 era. The first wave of boat people refugees took place in the late 70s. By the 1980 Census there were 245,000 Vietnamese in America. Then the ODP managed the refugee flow throughout the 80-90s and then it closed down. The subsequent immigration categories didn't begin until 2005.

Anyone can do the math.

The other link provides the source for the 823,000 claim. There is some variance on the count because some of the refugees where ethnic Chinese but living in Vietnam and so on. A total of 823,000 refugees admitted into the US of which776,000 were listed as Vietnamese.

You know, you actually have more class when you're drunk and posting on this board because then you do admit your error and you do it straight up. When you're sober, like now, you talk smack, do a quick scan of material culled from the internet and form an impression based on a snippet of misread material, then you puff up like a rooster, pretend that you know what you're talking about and when you're shown to be in the wrong, you talk more smack. This fits your pattern - you arrive at your conclusions first and then you go searching for some information which you can contort to fit your conclusion, even when it doesn't make prima facia sense to anyone who knows anything about the history of the boat people refugee crisis. This is why you don't change your positions on issues - they're not well researched and thought out, as you claim, they're simply emotional positions which are impervious to contradictory evidence.

Don't posture as knowledgeable about a topic when the sum total of your knowledge consists of 3 minutes of reading a fact sheet on topic.

ThePlayDrive · Sep 13, 2011

RiverDad said:
The Vietnamese were a hugely unpopular group immigrant group in the US. The support they had came from very specific sectors of society. African Americans have a far broader base of support in addition to specific government programs working on their behalf.

Being hugely unpopular does not discount the importance of strong community support. The "broad base of support" for black Americans is arguable at best particularly in comparison to the type of support that Vietnamese immigrants were given. Families were provided with "sponsors" who were charged with helping them to assimilate into American society and succeed. Black Americans do not have this. Yes, there are programs meant to help them, but not with the same personal attention. It marks the difference between a student who is provided with a school and a student who is provided with both a school and one-on-one tutor.

Your reference to a historical tradition of education/success is just you relying on stereotypes. The first wave of Vietnamese to arrive were the elite of South Vietnam, so they would fit your description, but the later waves of refugees were far down scale.

Perhaps I worded that poorly: historical tradition of emphasizing education and success. That's not a stereotype. That's just a cultural reality for much of Asia really. Although...Vietnamese Americans have the lowest education attainment rate of Asian Americans so perhaps your use of them as an example was a poor choice anyway.

However, ad arguendo, if their success in America relative to African Americans is due to their "historical tradition of education/success" then it's time that African Americans developed that same damn " tradition of education/success" and then they too should experience a better path towards upward mobility.

I'm talking about what is not what you think it should be.

You don't need a lot of ambition and drive to flee for your life.

I disagree. It might not have been innate drive, but it was drive acquired through fighting for your life, something black Americans don't have to do.

You citing a fact doesn't make an argument.

You cited a fact to go off on your "black people are dumb" rant and I cited a fact to explain that your argument doesn't hold water. You have no argument when it comes to generalizing blacks, you never will.

I can plainly see your fingernails clawing into the disintegrating raft as you hang on for dear life as your model of the world doesn't hang together and so you throw out feeble arguments whenever you can in order to deflect the onslaught of evidence and reason which is tearing your tattered raft apart.

This is called a "delusion of grandeur". I think of you and your arguments as nothing more than Stormfront drivel. I can't believe you think anybody on this board would have such a significant reaction to anything you post.

As I expected, a "Dog ate my homework" excuse.

:roll:

AdamT · Sep 13, 2011

RiverDad said:
The US only accepted 650 Vietnamese immigrants between 1950 and 1974. Then came the first wave of refugees, a 125,000. There was no legal emigration from Vietnam in the immediate post-75 era. The first wave of boat people refugees took place in the late 70s. By the 1980 Census there were 245,000 Vietnamese in America. Then the ODP managed the refugee flow throughout the 80-90s and then it closed down. The subsequent immigration categories didn't begin until 2005.

Anyone can do the math.

The other link provides the source for the 823,000 claim. There is some variance on the count because some of the refugees where ethnic Chinese but living in Vietnam and so on. A total of 823,000 refugees admitted into the US of which776,000 were listed as Vietnamese.

You know, you actually have more class when you're drunk and posting on this board because then you do admit your error and you do it straight up. When you're sober, like now, you talk smack, do a quick scan of material culled from the internet and form an impression based on a snippet of misread material, then you puff up like a rooster, pretend that you know what you're talking about and when you're shown to be in the wrong, you talk more smack. This fits your pattern - you arrive at your conclusions first and then you go searching for some information which you can contort to fit your conclusion, even when it doesn't make prima facia sense to anyone who knows anything about the history of the boat people refugee crisis. This is why you don't change your positions on issues - they're not well researched and thought out, as you claim, they're simply emotional positions which are impervious to contradictory evidence.

Don't posture as knowledgeable about a topic when the sum total of your knowledge consists of 3 minutes of reading a fact sheet on topic.

Dude, the sum of your knowledge on the topic is a quick scan of Wikipedia, so you might want to climb off your high hobby horse. You couldn't even give a straight rendition of the Wikipedia page, which wasn't even necessary as it supported your case without the fabrication. I would be less inclined to question what you say if you weren't so consistently inaccurate and didn't cherry pick your sources.

RiverDad · Sep 13, 2011

theplaydrive said:
The "broad base of support" for black Americans is arguable at best particularly in comparison to the type of support that Vietnamese immigrants were given.

Then make an argument. Just saying that a position is arguable doesn't bolster your claim. You're staking out an asinine position here. It amounts to the fact that there was more support for Vietnamese refugees than for African-American fellow citizens.

Families were provided with "sponsors" who were charged with helping them to assimilate into American society and succeed. Black Americans do not have this.

Do you even have an inkling of how demeaning and insulting this position is to African-Americans? You're claiming that they can't succeed in America unless some good white, church going, people reach out to them and teach them how to live in America.

Although...Vietnamese Americans have the lowest education attainment rate of Asian Americans so perhaps your use of them as an example was a poor choice anyway.

I chose them as an example because, as a group, they have suffered horrible depredation and faced many obstacles when they arrived here, far more than other groups, and because they've done relatively well for themselves despite these handicaps.

ric27 · Sep 13, 2011

RiverDad said:
You know, you actually have more class when you're drunk and posting on this board because then you do admit your error and you do it straight up. When you're sober, like now, you talk smack, do a quick scan of material culled from the internet and form an impression based on a snippet of misread material, then you puff up like a rooster, pretend that you know what you're talking about and when you're shown to be in the wrong, you talk more smack. This fits your pattern - you arrive at your conclusions first and then you go searching for some information which you can contort to fit your conclusion, even when it doesn't make prima facia sense to anyone who knows anything about the history of the boat people refugee crisis. This is why you don't change your positions on issues - they're not well researched and thought out, as you claim, they're simply emotional positions which are impervious to contradictory evidence.

Don't posture as knowledgeable about a topic when the sum total of your knowledge consists of 3 minutes of reading a fact sheet on topic.

RD - You can throw around as many statistics as you want and you'll just get something like "I don't really believe all that".

*The facts don't matter to them.* because they are operating from an emotional basis, i.e. their feelings and beliefs.

Jetboogieman · Sep 13, 2011

ric27 said:
The facts don't matter to them.* because they are operating from an emotional basis, i.e. their feelings and beliefs.

Well let me know what you accept the fact of Mutually Assured Destruction when discussing your prophetic visions of the upcoming war with China and this statement won't be quite so ironic.

ThePlayDrive · Sep 13, 2011

RiverDad said:
Do you even have an inkling of how demeaning and insulting this position is to African-Americans? You're claiming that they can't succeed in America unless some good white, church going, people reach out to them and teach them how to live in America.

I'll end the discussion here because the fact that you're twisting my argument to this level illustrates that you're not interested in actual discussion. It's actually pretty disgustingly dishonest and just makes your arguments easier to dismiss since you can't tackle people's posts without dramatically distorting them.

Facts:
1. Vietnamese immigrants had specialized attention which bolstered their success.
2. Vietnamese immigrants had a history of emphasizing education and success.
3. Vietnamese immigrants entered the United States with a drive they acquired by fighting for their lives.
4. Vietnamese immigrants had a strong community of support that most immigrants develop.
5. Vietnamese immigrants had an optimistic perception of the United States.

These things are greatly lacking in the lower class black American population not because of something innate within them but due to the experiences they've had and the history of their experiences here. As I have said several times in the past, black Americans can obviously overcome the obstacles that meet them, but this does not negate that the obstacles are there and to compare them to people who either lacked some of these obstacles or who had better means of overcoming them is nonsensical. In short, you've placed your example in an incomplete analysis of context - accepting the parts of it which support your point, ignoring the parts that weaken it and distorting the posts of those who point them out because you do not have the means to address them honestly.

ric27 · Sep 13, 2011

Jetboogieman said:
Well let me know what you accept the fact of Mutually Assured Destruction when discussing your prophetic visions of the upcoming war with China and this statement won't be quite so ironic.

Off topic, but will respond

The global economy is the new Mutually Assured Destruction, dude

There is a dichotomy in predicting future wars. You try to be logical and analyze the tensions, the economics and the "logic" to determine who will and will not fight. But history has shown that most wars began for illogical reasons and therefore, if you really want to predict them, you need to try and think crazy. Not just your crazy, you need to think like "them" crazy.

France was Germany's largest trading partner in 1939.

Grant · Sep 13, 2011

apdst said:
I'm sure he has a couple black friends, which quailifies him in two ways: 1) He's not a racist and 2) He's an expert on black folks.

I spend a lot of time among Black people in another country, Apdst, but of course the culture is quite different from that of American or Canadian Black people. I haven't had many real Black friends in our culture since I moved out of the country over 15 years ago. Therefore I am going by my perceptions, which might be in error, but I'd put them against a White liberals any time.

If you think I'm ever wrong or out of line, please don't hesitate to call me on it and correct me. All I'm doing is trying to get to some kind of truth.

Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

Somewhere in Babylon