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Thread: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

  1. #241
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    "progressive policies" encourage bad parents to breed at high rates
    progressive policies have nothing to due with high birth rates

    I suggest looking at India and its slums as an example, or those in Africa or Brazil. Not bastions of progressive policies yet many have very high birth rates
    Happy Hanukkah Cheerfull Kwanzaa
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    So, you think we're going in the right direction by throwing America's Christian belief system out with the bath water, and replacing it with another belief system in the form of moral relativism?
    Another false dichotomy. Deemphasizing a fictional religious construct doesn't mean ushering in moral relativism.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    progressive policies have nothing to due with high birth rates

    I suggest looking at India and its slums as an example, or those in Africa or Brazil. Not bastions of progressive policies yet many have very high birth rates

    The answer is crystal clear : adopt a conservative mindset (media would have to be included here)- throw away the liberal experiment - and knuckle down for some hard choices. Retool, the education system.

    Complete moral reboot.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    "progressive policies" encourage bad parents to breed at high rates
    I thought that was the Catholic Church's prerogative.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    One significant and identifiable one is stereotypes. We can see this fact by looking at the OP. Blacks have a significantly higher unemployment rate than whites.
    We also see that there are lower unemployment rates for post-grads than for college graduates, and lower unemployment rates for college graduates than high school graduates, and lower unemployment rates for high school graduates than for high school drop-outs. Skills and intelligence are very clearly significant confounding variables in the race-focused unemployment analysis.

    So a comparison of black-white in terms of unemployment needs to equalize for lower levels of black education level and mean level of group black IQ. We do see that when IQ is controlled for that income disparity evaporates, so it's plausible that in an environment where there is no discrimination being detected with regards to pay that there also would be some reduction in unemployment levels when skill and intelligence are controlled for.

    It's completely fine to note that blacks have a higher level of unemployment than whites. The interesting question to me is why this is so. If some parties wish to suggest that this is because of discrimination, then I want them to prove that this is so, not simply assume it as the null hypothesis.

    You have basically contended that this is because these stereotypes are reality, aka they are valid. I say that they may be valid but unreliable.
    And I acknowledge your point and agree with it. As I noted, this is a process of probability which says nothing about any individual.

    I think that my opinion has more weight because we only use stereotypes if there is little other information, such as in the labor market. Due to the lack of information, this is clearly a problem in the labor market that cannot be fixed by individual employers or potential employees, otherwise we would not have black having persistently higher unemployment.
    We would still see that even in an environment devoid of stereotypes, see the first part of my comment. I will agree with you that this contributes a part of the problem, but it certainly is not the whole problem.

    Your argument that the market will work this out has no weight considering higher black unemployment has been the case for all of modern history.
    Racial wage disparity disappeared back in the 1970s when cognition as a confounding variable is controlled. Report from MANAGERIAL AND DECISION ECONOMICS:


    The Myth of Racial Discrimination in Pay in the United States

    The analyses of the General Social Survey data from 1974 to 2000 replicate earlier findings from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth that racial disparity in earnings disappears once cognitive ability is controlled for. The results are robust across many alternative specifications, and further show that blacks receive significantly greater returns to their cognitive ability than nonblacks. The trend data show that there was no sign of racial discrimination in the United States as early as 1970s. The analyses call into question the necessity of and justification for preferential treatment of ethnic minorities.


    The market will sort this out. There are a lot of people in positions of authority who are responsible for hiring and who believe that stereotypes are nothing more than useless trash. They will be entirely neutral in the hiring process. All of the research I've seen shows that there is a varied environment in the labor market when it comes to stereotypes and purported discrimination, meaning that most employers are not discriminators. This means that there are two fundamentally different processes at work - one or the other must be more successful than the other.

    Secondly, the information scarcity which drives the usefulness of stereotypes applies mostly to applicants who can't provide disconfirming information. People with good work histories, irrespective of race, have the tools to invalidate the stereotype when they face a potential employer. Now the million dollar question is what proportion of these job applicants who have accumulated work histories confirm the stereotype compared to the proportion which disconfirm the stereotype. There's little that can be done for individuals who present work histories which confirm the stereotype for they are not being judged by stereotype, they are being judged as individuals based on their own work history.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    We also see that there are lower unemployment rates for post-grads than for college graduates, and lower unemployment rates for college graduates than high school graduates, and lower unemployment rates for high school graduates than for high school drop-outs. Skills and intelligence are very clearly significant confounding variables in the race-focused unemployment analysis.

    So a comparison of black-white in terms of unemployment needs to equalize for lower levels of black education level and mean level of group black IQ. We do see that when IQ is controlled for that income disparity evaporates, so it's plausible that in an environment where there is no discrimination being detected with regards to pay that there also would be some reduction in unemployment levels when skill and intelligence are controlled for.

    It's completely fine to note that blacks have a higher level of unemployment than whites. The interesting question to me is why this is so. If some parties wish to suggest that this is because of discrimination, then I want them to prove that this is so, not simply assume it as the null hypothesis.

    And I acknowledge your point and agree with it. As I noted, this is a process of probability which says nothing about any individual.



    We would still see that even in an environment devoid of stereotypes, see the first part of my comment. I will agree with you that this contributes a part of the problem, but it certainly is not the whole problem.



    Racial wage disparity disappeared back in the 1970s when cognition as a confounding variable is controlled. Report from MANAGERIAL AND DECISION ECONOMICS:


    The Myth of Racial Discrimination in Pay in the United States

    The analyses of the General Social Survey data from 1974 to 2000 replicate earlier findings from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth that racial disparity in earnings disappears once cognitive ability is controlled for. The results are robust across many alternative specifications, and further show that blacks receive significantly greater returns to their cognitive ability than nonblacks. The trend data show that there was no sign of racial discrimination in the United States as early as 1970s. The analyses call into question the necessity of and justification for preferential treatment of ethnic minorities.


    The market will sort this out. There are a lot of people in positions of authority who are responsible for hiring and who believe that stereotypes are nothing more than useless trash. They will be entirely neutral in the hiring process. All of the research I've seen shows that there is a varied environment in the labor market when it comes to stereotypes and purported discrimination, meaning that most employers are not discriminators. This means that there are two fundamentally different processes at work - one or the other must be more successful than the other.

    Secondly, the information scarcity which drives the usefulness of stereotypes applies mostly to applicants who can't provide disconfirming information. People with good work histories, irrespective of race, have the tools to invalidate the stereotype when they face a potential employer. Now the million dollar question is what proportion of these job applicants who have accumulated work histories confirm the stereotype compared to the proportion which disconfirm the stereotype. There's little that can be done for individuals who present work histories which confirm the stereotype for they are not being judged by stereotype, they are being judged as individuals based on their own work history.
    As usual you cherry pick your sources who often seem to be quite controversial and/or lightly regarded, to support your racist views, while suggesting that your sources are mainstream. In this case your argument seems to rest entirely on a paper by Satoshi Kanazawa wherein he concludes that the overwhelming evidence of racial pay disparity can all be explained by the lower ability of black respondents to pick synomyms for words. Apparently the reasoning is that if you can't come up with a bunch of synomyms for words, you must be stupider than someone who can. Even assuming this is true (which seems highly dubious), why he thinks this is more significant than the color of their skin is unexplained. Also interesting was his paper about why black women are considered less attractive, which has generally been panned as junk science. Perhaps that's why he was dismissed from writing for Psychology Today? His "thought experiment" about a President Anne Coulter dropping 35 nuclear bombs on the ME as a response to 9/11 was certainly ... interesting.
    Last edited by AdamT; 09-07-11 at 12:10 AM.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    As usual you cherry pick your sources who often seem to be quite controversial and/or lightly regarded, to support your racist views, while suggesting that your sources are mainstream.
    How about Nobel Prize winning economist James Heckman. Is he mainstream enough for you? The same analytic process is discussed in his work.


    Understanding The Sources Of Ethnic And Racial Wage Gaps And Their Implications For Policy

    Minority deficits in cognitive and noncognitive skills emerge early and then widen. Unequal schooling, neighborhoods, and peers may account for this differential growth in skills, but the main story in the data is not about growth rates but rather about the size of early deficits. Hispanic children start with cognitive and noncognitive deficits similar to those of black children. They also grow up in similarly disadvantaged environments and are likely to attend schools of similar quality. Hispanics complete much less schooling than blacks. Nevertheless, the ability growth by years of schooling is much higher for Hispanics than for blacks. By the time they reach adulthood, Hispanics have significantly higher test scores than do blacks. Conditional on test scores, there is no evidence of an important Hispanic-white wage gap. Our analysis of the Hispanic data illuminates the traditional study of black-white differences and casts doubt on many conventional explanations of these differences since they do not apply to Hispanics, who also suffer from many of the same disadvantages. The failure of the Hispanic-white gap to widen with schooling or age casts doubt on the claim that poor schools and bad neighborhoods are the reasons for the slow growth rate of black test scores.


    This makes a world of sense if we assume that employers are rewarding performance and are honest players in the labor market. The assumption underlying your world view is that employers are damn, dirty discriminators out to unjustly punish minority employees.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    How about Nobel Prize winning economist James Heckman. Is he mainstream enough for you? The same analytic process is discussed in his work.


    Understanding The Sources Of Ethnic And Racial Wage Gaps And Their Implications For Policy

    Minority deficits in cognitive and noncognitive skills emerge early and then widen. Unequal schooling, neighborhoods, and peers may account for this differential growth in skills, but the main story in the data is not about growth rates but rather about the size of early deficits. Hispanic children start with cognitive and noncognitive deficits similar to those of black children. They also grow up in similarly disadvantaged environments and are likely to attend schools of similar quality. Hispanics complete much less schooling than blacks. Nevertheless, the ability growth by years of schooling is much higher for Hispanics than for blacks. By the time they reach adulthood, Hispanics have significantly higher test scores than do blacks. Conditional on test scores, there is no evidence of an important Hispanic-white wage gap. Our analysis of the Hispanic data illuminates the traditional study of black-white differences and casts doubt on many conventional explanations of these differences since they do not apply to Hispanics, who also suffer from many of the same disadvantages. The failure of the Hispanic-white gap to widen with schooling or age casts doubt on the claim that poor schools and bad neighborhoods are the reasons for the slow growth rate of black test scores.


    This makes a world of sense if we assume that employers are rewarding performance and are honest players in the labor market. The assumption underlying your world view is that employers are damn, dirty discriminators out to unjustly punish minority employees.
    Seems like a credible source, but unfortunately his thesis doesn't support your argument as it doesn't address the critical factor of parenting.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Seems like a credible source, but unfortunately his thesis doesn't support your argument as it doesn't address the critical factor of parenting.
    Who gives a **** about parenting with respect to wage levels and hiring standards in the employment market? What matters for this discussion is the presence and validity of a factor which pertains to the issue of racial disparity in the job market. WHY that factor exists, while an interesting question, is outside the scope of this discussion.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Who gives a **** about parenting with respect to wage levels and hiring standards in the employment market? What matters for this discussion is the presence and validity of a factor which pertains to the issue of racial disparity in the job market. WHY that factor exists, while an interesting question, is outside the scope of this discussion.
    I thought you might care, since your second source clearly tracks disparate performance "by the time they reach adulthood", which is heavily influenced by parenting. Heckman casts doubt on the idea that poor schools and bad neighborhoods account for the disparity, but he doesn't seem to account for family cohesiveness and parenting.

    Keep searching, man. I'm sure there's something in your eugenics collection that will hold up better.

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