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Thread: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

  1. #231
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Oh I do think people have learned lessons about morality from religion. But that doesn't make religion the necessary vehicle for those lessons.
    If we accept suggest or assume the existence that Christian morals have had a positive effect on America's societal morals, it hasn't been through the imposition of laws, it has been through the affect in individual character, primarily believers. Where laws have been established that parallel religious dictates, they have generally (I'm sure there are some exceptions) been arrived at through rational thought and reason as being beneficial to society, not via a religious dictate.

    Do you agree?

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    If we accept suggest or assume the existence that Christian morals have had a positive effect on America's societal morals, it hasn't been through the imposition of laws, it has been through the affect in individual character, primarily believers. Where laws have been established that parallel religious dictates, they have generally (I'm sure there are some exceptions) been arrived at through rational thought and reason as being beneficial to society, not via a religious dictate.

    Do you agree?
    No, I don't agree. I think that religious dictates are just a codification of moral rules that developed long before modern day religions were conceived. So I think it's wrong to say that morality comes from religion. Rather, religion came from morality. Certainly the Greeks had a finely developed ethical sense long before Jesus was born.

  3. #233
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, I don't agree. I think that religious dictates are just a codification of moral rules that developed long before modern day religions were conceived. So I think it's wrong to say that morality comes from religion. Rather, religion came from morality. Certainly the Greeks had a finely developed ethical sense long before Jesus was born.
    So, you think we're going in the right direction by throwing America's Christian belief system out with the bath water, and replacing it with another belief system in the form of moral relativism?

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    So, you think we're going in the right direction by throwing America's Christian belief system out with the bath water, and replacing it with another belief system in the form of moral relativism?
    My 2 cents: I'm an Atheist and I think we're going in the wrong direction by destressing the Christian foundation of American society.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Do you have any proof to back up your argument?

    Also, just because there is some affirmative action does not change the fact that most of the nation's political and economic power is held in the hands of white men.
    Only that he worked there and at that time, and on several occasions he mentioned that blacks and women were what was being hired the most. He saw it. He worked with them. Nobody ever said that most of the power wasn't held in their hands. And least of all me as one thing for sure, I am not that niave to believe any different. I am telling you how it was, believe it or not.
    Last edited by Binky; 09-06-11 at 09:41 PM.

  6. #236
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    My 2 cents: I'm an Atheist and I think we're going in the wrong direction by destressing the Christian foundation of American society.
    Agreed, but you simply can't control people effectively with only government rules. If Stalin couldn't get it done, I doubt it will happen in any sort of "free" society. However, if you have everyone more or less on the same sheet of music as far as their behavior goes, and Christianity probably has this figured out better than anyone else ...then you have a chance of a society that doesn't have make a court case of every tiny bit of social dysfunction.

    I'm not religious...so, I don't have a dog in this fight. I just want to see America be successful long term. The big difference between my views and the views of most other self described "atheists" is that I'm not down on those people who ARE religious.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The issue that's dominated our discussion has been group stereotype and its accuracy and that's something that I believe has to be addressed by the affected community. They created the stereotype, speaking in terms of groups, and so I have no responsibility for trying to undo something I had no part in creating. This means that I reject efforts to force private institutions to ignore their own self-interests and pretend that this stereotype information doesn't exist. That information is either accurate or it's not. In a large society like ours there will always exist diverse strategies for how to address such issues and this creates a competition of approaches. If the stereotype information is inaccurate then those companies which ignore it altogether will be hiring fabulous employees while the companies who heed the stereotype will be bypassing these fabulous employees and instead hiring applicants who are not as talented. If the stereotype information is accurate, then the reverse scenario applies. The point is that the process will lead to a better understanding of truth and falsity. There will be winners and losers in the ranks of companies. Also keep in mind that this is mostly applicable to people just entering the workforce, for as people gain experience their performance history speaks much more authoritatively than group stereotypes, so the good performers will rise and the bad performers will sink.

    In a nutshell, companies have already had too much freedom stripped away from them. I'm opposed to all anti-discrimination laws which impinge on freedom of association. I'm kind of a liberty extremist in that regard, not too many go as far as me. Governments, which must govern for us all, must be fair and non-discriminatory, but people should have the unrestricted right to form the associations of their choice. You're probably getting a clue about how I feel about your question of more equal opportunity programs being forced on companies.
    I was meaning equal opportunity employment, as in title 7 of the civil rights act. I am inferring from your above quote that you are against such a measure.

    My position is that they shouldn't feel differently and if they do feel differently I believe it's because they're used to the status quo. A 17 year old driver is being judged not on his driving record but on the driving record of his peer group. I'm ok with that because I believe companies should be able to do this but I still recognize that a price falls on the good and careful 17 year old driver.

    As for the barbership restricting clientele only to white people, I say go for it. They should have the right to exercise their freedom of association and people can exercise their choice of whether to patronize the establishment or take their business to their competitor who doesn't discriminate. I don't think that that white barbershop would stay open for business for very long but I do think that they should have the freedom to form their own associations without associations being forced upon them. With freedom comes consequences.
    Insurance companies do not discriminate based on race either. They could easily find statistics of drivers of different race and ethnicity and charge them different premiums based on such information. Why do they not do something like that? The fact is racial discrimination is looked upon much differently.

    That's why the barbershop would go out of business. Now, 60 years ago this would not have been the case in many places, why?

    Some problems don't have easy solutions. I can't see how penalizing employers by holding them legally responsible for ignoring information which can save them money is a preferable outcome. Better to let the marketplace of ideas battle it out. Some employers and their human resources departments won't believe in the value of stereotypes. Good for them. They can hire people just as though there was a law forcing them to ignore stereotypes. They can now reap the gains or suffer the losses which result from making their choice of hiring strategy.
    Ignoring what information? We need to be clear because we both agreed that stereotypes are most likely to be used when there is little information about the individual. We also agreed that this is more of a societal problem than one of individual employers. We can sit here and analyze all day what hire practices could be done to save money, to take advantage of poor hiring by others, etc, but at the end of the day the fact is that most of these hiring practices are being done already. The fact is that the way different societal institutions are set up place ethnic minorities, such as blacks, at a disadvantage in the labor market. One significant and identifiable one is stereotypes. We can see this fact by looking at the OP. Blacks have a significantly higher unemployment rate than whites. You have basically contended that this is because these stereotypes are reality, aka they are valid. I say that they may be valid but unreliable. I think that my opinion has more weight because we only use stereotypes if there is little other information, such as in the labor market. Due to the lack of information, this is clearly a problem in the labor market that cannot be fixed by individual employers or potential employees, otherwise we would not have black having persistently higher unemployment. Your argument that the market will work this out has no weight considering higher black unemployment has been the case for all of modern history.

  8. #238
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    My 2 cents: I'm an Atheist and I think we're going in the wrong direction by destressing the Christian foundation of American society.
    But, you're a rightward leaning individual. You can't comprehend trampling on another person's rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #239
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Yeah, that's pretty much what I said above. Unfortunately a lot of kids don't have the benefit of good parents.
    "progressive policies" encourage bad parents to breed at high rates



  10. #240
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    We can look elsewhere for examples of how other societies are dealing with the cancer of multiculturalism. Do you favor this type of solution as is being proposed in Ontario:


    Premier Dalton McGuinty's Liberals plan to entice businesses into hiring new immigrants with a $10,000 tax credit.

    But an audio recording of a conference call, heard by QMI Agency, reveals that a senior Liberal strategist is concerned about "potential blowback" if the opposition portrays the election goodie for newcomers as an affirmative action plan.

    Another strategist says the program would be capped to prevent it from running amok.

    The conference call was held Sunday - one day before the Liberals unveil their election platform.

    The tax credit apparently addresses the complaint from newcomers that they struggle to get work experience in Ontario.

    It's unclear how well the program would be received by Ontarians, who were skeptical about affirmative action programs introduced by Ontario's former NDP government in the early 1990s.


    Silly Canadians. They didn't learn from our problems and they purposely loaded a syringe with cancer cells and injecting their society. Now they're dealing with a self-inflicted problem. Their solution is to have Canadian taxpayer money being spent on enticing employers to favor newcomers to Canada instead of hiring the best qualified candidates for the job thus disadvantaging native born Canadians in the job application process.

    Do you imagine that something like this proposal is needed here?
    Several points:

    1. I do not regard multiculturalism as a cancer.
    2. I am not saying the best qualified person should not get the job, I am just saying that the current system places some at a disadvantage.
    3. A $10,000 tax credit is extreme.
    4. Laws should prevent discrimination, not place incentives to hire specific groups of people.
    5. I do not favor what is in that article.

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