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Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

j-mac said:
And proving that you are in no way seriously wanting to discuss this honestly....Could have guessed that one from a mile away.

j-mac
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I only open myself to intellectual debate with those who show they are prepared for it.
 
ric27 said:
This is freakin incredible!....AMERICA, LAND OF OPPORTUNITIES.

Get over the white, black, brown racism bs. The essence of capitalism is not just making ****ing money. It is the freedom to do whatever the **** you want, and to succeed or fail at what you want to do as the result of your skills, work, filling a need, etc. If you want to be a professional basketball player at 5' 6", you better be damn good. And if you are damn good, then you have the opportunity to succeed.

EVERYONE has the opportunity to succeed
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Sure, everyone has the opportunity, but not everyone is born with the same resources, position in society (minority vs. majority, etc.), role models, etc. which means certain groups and individuals have a shorter distance to go in order to take advantage of that opportunity than others . Sure, almost anyone can overcome those disadvantages, but that doesn't mean the disadvantages aren't there.
 
AdamT said:
Well, he knows a little more than most, having worked as a community organizer in Chicago for some years.
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BHO spent time in some of the best universities in the world in order to become a 'community organizer'? What the hell kind of job is that? Where is the community he organized and what does this community have to say about his organizational skills? The man is a fraud!
 
Where is everybody getting all this extraordinary acheivement of the Vietnamese? Sure a lot of them have become very successful, but alot of them haven't. They look pretty much like any other group.


Today, even as many still struggle with isolation, high poverty rates and persistent crime, particularly among low-income youth, some in the community are increasingly making their voices heard outside their ethnic enclaves -- and becoming more a part of the nation's fabric.
[...]
Citywide (San Jose), 13 percent of Vietnamese households received public assistance in 2000 compared to 4 percent of all households, census data show.
[...]
These struggles are obvious in Oakland, 40 miles north of San Jose, where more than one-third of the city's Vietnamese live below the poverty line and per capita income is half that of the overall population, census data show.

The Vietnamese American Community : Asian-Nation :: Asian American History, Demographics, & Issues
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About 31.3 percent of Vietnamese immigrants lived in poverty in 2008 compared to 37.9 percent of all immigrants and 28.7 percent of the native born.

Migration Information Source - Vietnamese Immigrants in the United States
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It's hard to find a lot of information because, the Vietnamese are usually grouped in with 'Asians'.
 
American said:
Tell me this, how come Vietnamese can come over here on a freaking boat, with almost no clothes or possessions, and within just a few years are running a business?
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For the same reason people from "insert any nation" can come over here and in a few years be running a business. This does not mean anything, nor does it address my statement.
 
theplaydrive said:
Sure, everyone has the opportunity, but not everyone is born with the same resources, position in society (minority vs. majority, etc.), role models, etc. which means certain groups and individuals have a shorter distance to go in order to take advantage of that opportunity than others . Sure, almost anyone can overcome those disadvantages, but that doesn't mean the disadvantages aren't there.
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An earlier example given was the Vietnamese boat people who had no resources whatsoever, apart from their own determination to make good. You should have read the post.

There are also people who have been born with every opportunity but go on to have failed and unhappy lives. Asking the government to make everything equal, including outcome, ignores the human spirit which exists in all of us and which should get the opportunity to express itself. That's really the American Dream, to my mind. Just to be whatever you can be and to take pride in that.
 
Goldenboy219 said:
For the same reason people from "insert any nation" can come over here and in a few years be running a business. This does not mean anything, nor does it address my statement.
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What it does say is that when racism is institutionalized, as it is the case with Black people, it can do them more harm than good. That people can make it on their own without government getting involved and have been doing it throughout the history of the United States.
 
BWG said:
Where is everybody getting all this extraordinary acheivement of the Vietnamese? Sure a lot of them have become very successful, but alot of them haven't. They look pretty much like any other group.
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The point wasn't the Vietnamese as much as the idea that people can arrive with very little and still make good in their lives, and this is often most evident in the second generation.

The Jewish example might have been used, or the Italian, Irish, Icelandic, or any cultural group. The Vietnamese were just more recent.
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Grant said:
An earlier example given was the Vietnamese boat people who had no resources whatsoever, apart from their own determination to make good. You should have read the post.
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I read the post and it has no impact on anything I've said. Do you realize that black Americans who emigrate to other countries fare well in their new states (when they might have done worse here) just as immigrants from other places to the US tend to fare well here (when they might have done worse in their home state)? Your problem is that you draw conclusions without analyzing all of the factors that influence a particular phenomenon and that severely detracts from your arguments.

There are also people who have been born with every opportunity but go on to have failed and unhappy lives. Asking the government to make everything equal, including outcome, ignores the human spirit which exists in all of us and which should get the opportunity to express itself. That's really the American Dream, to my mind. Just to be whatever you can be and to take pride in that.
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1. You're right some people are born with everything and they fail, but the norm for those born with everything is to succeed and the norm for those born with nothing is to fail. That's not a coincidence.
2. Equality does not deny the human spirit, it ensures that everyone has the same opportunity to fully realize it.
3. That's a great dream. It's to bad that not everyone has the same opportunity to realize it.
 
BWG said:
Where is everybody getting all this extraordinary acheivement of the Vietnamese? Sure a lot of them have become very successful, but alot of them haven't. They look pretty much like any other group.







It's hard to find a lot of information because, the Vietnamese are usually grouped in with 'Asians'.
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Another thing from personal experience. The first time I tried to get a car loan I was told to go **** myself withou a cosigner. Two years at my job, real adult full time paycheck.

Living in a neighborhood full of newly arrived boat people.

And if they were driving, they were driving new cars. On credit. Hadn't been in the COUNTRY two years. Some kind of program guaranteeing loans.

Pissed a lot of people off, usually at the Vietnamese themselves. Not me, after the crap they came from I got no problem with a little help. I was pissed at the system for hooking them up while denying me.

Just saying that they did kinda get their 40 acres and a mule, so didn't exactly start with "nothing".
 
It's also true that immigrants tend to be higher achievers than those who stayed at home. It takes some guts and hard work, and some capital, to pick yourself up and move halfway around the world to pursue better opportunities abroad.
 
theplaydrive said:
Sure, everyone has the opportunity, but not everyone is born with the same resources, position in society (minority vs. majority, etc.), role models, etc. which means certain groups and individuals have a shorter distance to go in order to take advantage of that opportunity than others . Sure, almost anyone can overcome those disadvantages, but that doesn't mean the disadvantages aren't there.
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Another key word, I'm going to throw out...is incentive

Lets say you magically create jobs for everyone in the country, but you leave the welfare/entitlement/ parasite system as is. How many would get off their asses and go work if they will still be taken care of for doing nothing?? Not many I would bet form my experiences.

Why should they? The American laziness idea of getting something for nothing is the absolute way to go. They KNOW FOR A FACT that their kids will not starve, that no matter HOW MANY babies they make, if they do the right forms, they will get fed, clothed and housed. Why should they do anything different?


People still go to prison and not worry about it because there is nothing to be afraid of, they get fed, educated, clothed and paid. If the cost of going to prison, for example, cost you a digit, a limb or a testicle (lol) for each incarceration, then maybe people might think twice about doing illegal ****. But again, where is the incentive to stop?

Until people look in the mirror and say "****!, I'm gonna and my family will starve to death and be homeless unless I go out and work"... the bull**** will just stay the same.
 
BWG said:
Where is everybody getting all this extraordinary acheivement of the Vietnamese? Sure a lot of them have become very successful, but alot of them haven't. They look pretty much like any other group.
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"Look at the Vietnamese" =/ "They are at the top of the socioeconomic ladder," rather it means that "Look at them compared to African-Americans." The comparison is illuminating because most of these people were boatpeople refugees, didn't know the language, didn't know our culture, were peasants and not first world citizens, etc and all sorts of other disadvantages compared to African Americans. By any rational reckoning, with all of these disadvantages, the Vietnamese should be scrapping the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. They're not.

African American Household Income, 1999 = $29,423
Vietnamese American Household Income, 1999 =$45,085
American mean Household Income = 1999 = $41,994

Workforce Participation Rate:
African-American = 43%
Vietnamese-American = 55.7%
American mean = 49.33%

Mean Value of Residence:
African-American = $80,600
Vietnamese-American = $151,400
American mean = $119,600

Disability Status:
African-American = 21.27%
Vietnamese-American = 19.82%
American mean = 17.68%

Families below poverty line (#Families/population)
African-American = 5.13%
Vietnamese-American = 3.11%
American mean = 2.35%

Individuals below poverty line
African-American = 23.5%
Vietnamese-American = 15.67%
American mean = 12.05%
 
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Grant said:
That seems to be what's being said. How often must it be repeated?

What would a White Liberal know about the Black experience?
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I'm sure he has a couple black friends, which quailifies him in two ways: 1) He's not a racist and 2) He's an expert on black folks.
 
What if...? said:
And if they were driving, they were driving new cars. On credit. Hadn't been in the COUNTRY two years. Some kind of program guaranteeing loans.
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Church people like doing stuff like this. There is nothing stopping your from organizing a group and going into the 'hood and putting your signature on the dotted line as a guarantor for a car loan for any African-American who is without a car.
 
RiverDad said:
Church people like doing stuff like this. There is nothing stopping your from organizing a group and going into the 'hood and putting your signature on the dotted line as a guarantor for a car loan for any African-American who is without a car.
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Right, you could call it Countrywide Car Loans.
 
Grant said:
The point wasn't the Vietnamese as much as the idea that people can arrive with very little and still make good in their lives, and this is often most evident in the second generation.

The Jewish example might have been used, or the Italian, Irish, Icelandic, or any cultural group. The Vietnamese were just more recent.
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My point is that even though there are many 'success stories' about the Vietnamese, there are also many stories that aren't so successful. Same goes for any of the others that you mentioned.

There are many 'success stories' among the black population as well.
 
What if...? said:
Another thing from personal experience. The first time I tried to get a car loan I was told to go **** myself withou a cosigner. Two years at my job, real adult full time paycheck.

Living in a neighborhood full of newly arrived boat people.

And if they were driving, they were driving new cars. On credit. Hadn't been in the COUNTRY two years. Some kind of program guaranteeing loans.

Pissed a lot of people off, usually at the Vietnamese themselves. Not me, after the crap they came from I got no problem with a little help. I was pissed at the system for hooking them up while denying me.

Just saying that they did kinda get their 40 acres and a mule, so didn't exactly start with "nothing".
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The refugees who were evacuated in 1975 were sent to refugee or “relocation” camps in the United States and left after obtaining sponsorship. A sponsor could be an individual, organization, church, or sometimes even a state or local government

The government categorized them as “refugees” and not “immigrants” thus they were entitled to government welfare benefits such as food stamps. The sponsors and/or an assistance association network assisted the Vietnamese through the process of applying for these government benefits. The Vietnamese population is a little less than 2 million, they had a lot of 'hands on', personal attention.
 
RiverDad said:
"Look at the Vietnamese" =/ "They are at the top of the socioeconomic ladder," rather it means that "Look at them compared to African-Americans." The comparison is illuminating because most of these people were boatpeople refugees, didn't know the language, didn't know our culture, were peasants and not first world citizens, etc and all sorts of other disadvantages compared to African Americans. By any rational reckoning, with all of these disadvantages, the Vietnamese should be scrapping the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. They're not.
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Your conclusion requires that you ignore the many differences in history and particularly circumstance between black Americans and Vietnamese immigrants. Data doesn't work without context and you seem to always conveniently forget that.
 
theplaydrive said:
Your conclusion requires that you ignore the many differences in history and particularly circumstance between black Americans and Vietnamese immigrants. Data doesn't work without context and you seem to always conveniently forget that.
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Hand waving.

If you believe that lack of context is skewing the analysis, then SHOW US HOW the lack of context is skewing the analysis and conclusions.

All you're doing here is dismissing evidence that you don't like because it undermines your world view and you're conjuring up a "sciency" sounding rationale to do it. What you're really doing is playing Three Wise Monkeys "Hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil."

I provided plenty of context. The Vietnamese arrived here after enduring a decades long war, witnessing many tragedies, being victimized by the danger of fleeing across open ocean only to be placed in refugee camps in Thailand and other countries, languishing in these camps for long periods, arriving in America, a first world nation totally different from how life in much of South Vietnam had been lived, not knowing English, not knowing our customs, not having any network of family and friends to help them, most being poorly educated, the whole community being seen by many Americans as being responsible for the deaths of America's sons in Vietnam, etc. These details paint context.

What you mean is that there is some imaginary victimization context that you apply to blacks in America which makes their lives more difficult than what the Vietnamese encountered, that is, the Vietnamese had it much easier in America than did the blacks. Your evidence? Nada.
 
RiverDad said:
What you mean is that there is some imaginary victimization context that you apply to blacks in America which makes their lives more difficult than what the Vietnamese encountered, that is, the Vietnamese had it much easier in America than did the blacks.
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Like I said, data doesn't work without context and your "context" is incomplete. Answer these questions and you'll be able to understand the gaps in your context:

1. Why do black Americans who immigrate to other countries do well?
2. Why do people, including black Americans, emigrate/immigrate?
 
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