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Thread: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

  1. #121
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    6 Million Jews
    Don't forget the Indians.

    Jim Crow laws were government regulation, yes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #122
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You have a masters in education? Really?
    Yeah.... incredible. I find myself misty-eyed and lost for words.

    Masters in Education...lol
    Last edited by ric27; 09-04-11 at 10:19 PM.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Yeah.... incredible. I find myself misty-eyed and lost for words.
    Is it a wonder why the public school system is ****ed up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I think that your comment is quite interesting. It would be good if we could develop the skills that you mention but the problem is that schools don't know how to teach independent thinking and critical thinking. Secondly, when we analyze how critical thinking actually operates we find that much of it is based on analytic reasoning where "fact" are compared and differences spotted. For this to occur one needs a solid base of knowledge, you know, those memorized facts. Here's an example - memorize your times tables. Once you've got them committed to memory then you are equipped to detect patterns and tricks which allow you to extend your knowledge beyond what you've memorized. If you know your #10 times table then you'll have no problem with the #100 times table and the #1,000 times table. If you don't know your #10 times table, then you're going to stumble around trying to do multiplication calculations based on 100 and 1,000.
    All I'm saying is that what is the use of memorizing facts if thats all one can do?
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

  5. #125
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    All I'm saying is that what is the use of memorizing facts if thats all one can do?
    -We all have to crawl before we can walk and walk before we can run.
    -Knowing facts is a pretty good end on its own terms.
    -With a storehouse of facts a person is equipped to begin to see patterns. This is the point where critical thinking can begin.

    The problem is that we don't know how to effectively teach critical thinking, so basing educational pedagogies on the presumption that that is the alternative road available to us is just wishful thinking.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What is the solution to high insurance premiums for 17 year old male drivers? The obvious solution is for 17 year old male drivers to drive more responsibly and have the same accident rate as 45 year old women. Once that group of young male drivers behaves as we see 45 year old female drivers behaving on the road, then the outcomes in terms of insurance premiums charged will be equalized for the two groups.

    These stereotypes arise from reality. They can also be changed by changing reality.
    So if we attempt to change reality by using something like equal opportunity employment are you opposed? Many people view discrimination based on age and race differently. One is common place while the other is actually considered unjust. You may think they are the same, but most people would disagree. If a barbershop gives a discount to seniors no one cares, if a barbershop gave discounts to whites it would piss a lot of people off.

    The solution is there - increase the value of the individual information. If the group stereotype is laziness, then arrive at the job interview with personal recommendations from previous employers which sing your praises regarding your astounding work ethic. And so on. This is now specific information that is more useful than the general information conveyed via group stereotype.
    That's true, but that is not the point. If your group is stereotyped as lazy that automatically puts you at the disadvantage. You have to now put forth an extra effort that someone else would not have to. It doesn't make it impossible to get a job, just harder. That fact might manifest itself in higher unemployment rates for your specific group than others...
    Last edited by drz-400; 09-05-11 at 03:39 AM.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    So if we attempt to change reality by using something like equal opportunity employment are you opposed?
    You need to define what you mean by that term. Until we get the term defined let me add this detail about my position for I think that there are others who also hold this position.

    I will actively support creating a society in which there is equal opportunity for children. I will fight strenuously to oppose mechanisms designed to create equal outcomes. If a community or their political allies feel that inequality is being fostered by unequal spending for education. I'll lend a hand to equalize spending, so long as more liberty is returned as a reciprocal gesture, meaning freedom for parents to send their children to the schools of their choice. If there is unequal access to food for children, then I'll pay increased taxes so that schools can feed the children. If there is poor access to medical care, then I'll do my part to equalize this factor for children. You get the picture - I'm all for giving kids a fair shake in life. I know that this won't reduce inequality but I won't puncture the dreams of others who believe that inequality can be eradicated.

    When the kids become adults, then they're one their own. No more smoothing the way for everyone. Now it's competition time.

    The issue that's dominated our discussion has been group stereotype and its accuracy and that's something that I believe has to be addressed by the affected community. They created the stereotype, speaking in terms of groups, and so I have no responsibility for trying to undo something I had no part in creating. This means that I reject efforts to force private institutions to ignore their own self-interests and pretend that this stereotype information doesn't exist. That information is either accurate or it's not. In a large society like ours there will always exist diverse strategies for how to address such issues and this creates a competition of approaches. If the stereotype information is inaccurate then those companies which ignore it altogether will be hiring fabulous employees while the companies who heed the stereotype will be bypassing these fabulous employees and instead hiring applicants who are not as talented. If the stereotype information is accurate, then the reverse scenario applies. The point is that the process will lead to a better understanding of truth and falsity. There will be winners and losers in the ranks of companies. Also keep in mind that this is mostly applicable to people just entering the workforce, for as people gain experience their performance history speaks much more authoritatively than group stereotypes, so the good performers will rise and the bad performers will sink.

    In a nutshell, companies have already had too much freedom stripped away from them. I'm opposed to all anti-discrimination laws which impinge on freedom of association. I'm kind of a liberty extremist in that regard, not too many go as far as me. Governments, which must govern for us all, must be fair and non-discriminatory, but people should have the unrestricted right to form the associations of their choice. You're probably getting a clue about how I feel about your question of more equal opportunity programs being forced on companies.

    Many people view discrimination based on age and race differently. One is common place while the other is actually considered unjust. You may think they are the same, but most people would disagree. If a barbershop gives a discount to seniors no one cares, if a barbershop gave discounts to whites it would piss a lot of people off.
    My position is that they shouldn't feel differently and if they do feel differently I believe it's because they're used to the status quo. A 17 year old driver is being judged not on his driving record but on the driving record of his peer group. I'm ok with that because I believe companies should be able to do this but I still recognize that a price falls on the good and careful 17 year old driver.

    As for the barbership restricting clientele only to white people, I say go for it. They should have the right to exercise their freedom of association and people can exercise their choice of whether to patronize the establishment or take their business to their competitor who doesn't discriminate. I don't think that that white barbershop would stay open for business for very long but I do think that they should have the freedom to form their own associations without associations being forced upon them. With freedom comes consequences.

    That's true, but that is not the point. If your group is stereotyped as lazy that automatically puts you at the disadvantage. You have to now put forth an extra effort that someone else would not have to. It doesn't make it impossible to get a job, just harder. That fact might manifest itself in higher unemployment rates for your specific group than others...
    Some problems don't have easy solutions. I can't see how penalizing employers by holding them legally responsible for ignoring information which can save them money is a preferable outcome. Better to let the marketplace of ideas battle it out. Some employers and their human resources departments won't believe in the value of stereotypes. Good for them. They can hire people just as though there was a law forcing them to ignore stereotypes. They can now reap the gains or suffer the losses which result from making their choice of hiring strategy.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Agreed

    Parents being able to make their own choices as to where their kids are educated...to me is fundamental. Its their tax money that is being spent on the schools, they want it returned and spent on the schools of their choice. In most cases, the parents then spend even more to cover the difference between the private school and the public. This goes across all racial lines and is true for most demographics.

    Leftist mindset is authoritarian and wants a centralized educational standard with their textbooks and causes, forced busing (though I believe that is mostly in the past now), etc. Thats totally unacceptable to me

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    What's wrong with all those black people, clearly they don't have the guts to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and help themselves!

    Oh wait, no, it's all Obama's fault they can't help themselves!

    black people's fault? Obama's fault? Wait, i'm confused now...

    I can remember a time decades ago when my hubby and I were having a very rough time financially, and we had to put on our bigboy and biggirl pants pulling ourselves up and out of the mire we were bogged in. I spent my time working while hubby got a degree in drafting, manufacturing and machining. He ended up working for GM and has just retired last Christmas from their robotics division. Beginning in the 1970's, hiring in the big three was solely based on color. It became extrememly difficult for a white man to get hired as the priority was to hire minorities and women first. Affirmative action ruled the big three in those days. As for today, I don't know whether it's still enforced or not.
    Last edited by Binky; 09-05-11 at 11:52 AM.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Binky View Post
    I can remember a time decades ago when my hubby and I were having a very rough time financially, and we had to put on our bigboy and biggirl pants pulling ourselves up and out of the mire we were bogged in. I spent my time working while hubby got a degree in drafting, manufacturing and machining. He ended up working for GM and has just retired last Christmas from their robotics division. Beginning in the 1970's, hiring in the big three was solely based on color. It became extrememly difficult for a white man to get hired as the priority was to hire minorities and women first. Affirmative action ruled the big three in those days. As for today, I don't know whether it's still enforced or not.
    Do you have any proof to back up your argument?

    Also, just because there is some affirmative action does not change the fact that most of the nation's political and economic power is held in the hands of white men.
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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