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Thread: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

  1. #101
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes it does. It says very loudly that you do not know what you are talking about and its all double talk and has less utilitarian value than a bag of manure.

    But then , what else is new?


    Inequality and ability


    In fact, the variance of the unobserved sector-specific skill now decreases in both the professional and service sectors, while increasing very slightly in the blue-collar sector. The addition of IQ into the analysis reduces the returns to education, particularly for 1992, so that there is virtually no appreciable increase in the return to education in either sector after controlling for IQ. The increasing return to education found in Table 6 is now picked up by the increasing return to IQ in the professional and service sectors


    What the research show is that there is an increase in income tied to a person's education. When the analysis controls for IQ the return to education drops. This strongly suggests that employers are rewarding people with higher pay, not for their education credential or the specific skills which they may have learned via education, but instead for their general thinking ability.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    While you could say that SOME stereotypes are accurate on the average, and some are more accurate than others, you also have to take into account that with these broad generalities there is a high degree of variability.
    What the research shows is that most people do, in fact, think this way. The people who believe stereotypes apply in all instances are exceedingly rare.

    Lets say for arguements sake, and this is pure speculation, that the reason for the stereotype of most blacks being lazy is really because most of them really are lazy, and this means that they SHOULD have more people unemployed, this is unacceptable to me because this stereotype while accurate of the group would lack any sort of precision if you applied it to an individual.
    This is true as well but it's impractical to implement. If a woman is walking alone on a dark path at night and she sees a little girl running towards her she will react differently than if she sees a single elderly woman walking towards her and yet again she will react differently than if she sees a big, strong young man walking towards her. She will judge the threat level of each individual based on stereotypes - the man, who she doesn't know but is judging, is deemed to be the greatest risk to her. You would have her treat the little girl, the elderly woman, and the big strong man as equal threats. That's not practical. When she makes her judgment she is judging the man based on stereotype not on his own individuality. She can't afford the time to gather the information that she needs on this individual man in order to judge him accurately. She bases her decision on the best information that she has available to her.

    This is exactly what most people do when the make decisions - the use the best information available to them. When they do not have information on the individual, then they rely on stereotypes. However, when they do have information on the individual, research clearly demonstrates that people abandon the stereotype and rely on the specific information, all else being equal. For instance, if there exists a stereotype that men are awful cooks and someone has enjoyed a meal prepared by a man, they'll disregard the stereotype and judge the man based on his cooking ability.

    One black person could be living as a bum on the street on food stamps while one could be president of the country. Its really a case of accuracy vs. precision.
    Again, people are not clowns. They do have reasoning ability. They judge all sorts of complementary information as they weigh the value of a stereotype.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What the research shows is that most people do, in fact, think this way. The people who believe stereotypes apply in all instances are exceedingly rare.
    Great, and getting to your next point, I agree, I think it is really a question of when they are used. Stereotypes will be used more often when there is little other information about the person, so we must infer something about them.


    This is true as well but it's impractical to implement. If a woman is walking alone on a dark path at night and she sees a little girl running towards her she will react differently than if she sees a single elderly woman walking towards her and yet again she will react differently than if she sees a big, strong young man walking towards her. She will judge the threat level of each individual based on stereotypes - the man, who she doesn't know but is judging, is deemed to be the greatest risk to her. You would have her treat the little girl, the elderly woman, and the big strong man as equal threats. That's not practical. When she makes her judgment she is judging the man based on stereotype not on his own individuality. She can't afford the time to gather the information that she needs on this individual man in order to judge him accurately. She bases her decision on the best information that she has available to her.

    This is exactly what most people do when the make decisions - the use the best information available to them. When they do not have information on the individual, then they rely on stereotypes. However, when they do have information on the individual, research clearly demonstrates that people abandon the stereotype and rely on the specific information, all else being equal. For instance, if there exists a stereotype that men are awful cooks and someone has enjoyed a meal prepared by a man, they'll disregard the stereotype and judge the man based on his cooking ability.
    Agreed, problem is that when you are applying for a job there will be little information about you. You have an application or an interview. Its easy to see why someone might have to resort to stereotypes to draw a necessary conclusion. Thus, this brings us to my point, negative stereotypes are hurting the black population in the labor market. Why? Because the stereotype may be accurate or valid for the group, but it is not a precise or reliable way to gain information about individuals. This goes back to stillballin's controversial claim of "institutional racism". This is how it happens.

    Again, people are not clowns. They do have reasoning ability. They judge all sorts of complementary information as they weigh the value of a stereotype.
    True, I am just making sure my point is clear. Accurate is not precise. The stereotype can be valid, but not reliable.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Hmmmm....Our public education system aka "government schools" is nothing more than a shifty pyramid scheme bent on Marxist socialization.

    The only tangible things that are accomplished in K-12 today is teaching kids how to vote for democrats and fornicate with one another. I guess in some places they still teach kids how to play sports, but to my mind that's not remotely enough to redeem the evils of the system.

    Double talk and malarkey??
    That must explain why we have the highest standard of living in the world.
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Agreed, problem is that when you are applying for a job there will be little information about you. You have an application or an interview. Its easy to see why someone might have to resort to stereotypes to draw a necessary conclusion. Thus, this brings us to my point, negative stereotypes are hurting the black population in the labor market. Why? Because the stereotype may be accurate or valid for the group, but it is not a precise or reliable way to gain information about individuals. This goes back to stillballin's controversial claim of "institutional racism". This is how it happens.
    And this is the heart of the problem. How do we find a balance between two competing interests and two competing values. The job applicant wants to be judged as an individual and not held to account for the stereotype attached to his group. The employer wants to make the best, and most accurate, decision he can. When an employer takes on a new employee the act of hiring and bringing the new employee up to speed represents a considerable investment on the part of the firm and if that employee doesn't work out then that investment is flushed down the drain. The employer seeks out as much information as he can possibly collect in order to minimize the risk to his bottom line - employers who make good hiring decisions will save money compared to firms which make bad hiring decisions.

    Your position, I take it, is that employers should disregard stereotypes completely and judge the job applicant solely on the information they have available to them that is restricted to just that individual. The problem is that stereotypes are really just probabilities and when you work with a large enough sample set, and the probabilities favor one outcome, you're going to improve your performance metric by relying on the probability calculation. If stereotypes were inaccurate most of the time, then relying on them would actually produce worse outcomes for the employer, or for anyone for that matter.

    So, an employer who adopts your preferred method and rejects relying on stereotypes will be competing against employers who judiciously use stereotypes and if the stereotypes are accurate, then the employer who rejects using them is going to be making more costly hiring mistakes than the employer who uses them. This does not create an incentive for employers to reject information carried by stereotypes.

    The solution here is simple to conceive but very difficult to implement and that solution is that the basis for the stereotype needs to be invalidated. That solution needs to be implemented in the community that is affected by the stereotype.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post

    Inequality and ability


    In fact, the variance of the unobserved sector-specific skill now decreases in both the professional and service sectors, while increasing very slightly in the blue-collar sector. The addition of IQ into the analysis reduces the returns to education, particularly for 1992, so that there is virtually no appreciable increase in the return to education in either sector after controlling for IQ. The increasing return to education found in Table 6 is now picked up by the increasing return to IQ in the professional and service sectors




    What the research show is that there is an increase in income tied to a person's education. When the analysis controls for IQ the return to education drops. This strongly suggests that employers are rewarding people with higher pay, not for their education credential or the specific skills which they may have learned via education, but instead for their general thinking ability.
    The paper you linked to is a prime example of BS wrapped up nice and neat in a fine sheen of gobbledygook and meaningless jargon which says nothing of any substance. I can see why it appealed to you.

    here is a sample of the wisdom contained in it


    For any given year, each individual chooses their sector by utility
    maximization where the utility of individual i in sector j is represented as follows:
    Uij
    bj Z
    i
    W
    ij
    v
    ij
    where Zi is a Lz
    ��1 vector of observable, exogenous variables for person i in all three
    sectors, bj is a 1
    ��Lz utility parameter vector on the exogenous variables in sector j, Wij is
    the log wage of person i in sector j, vij is an independent (across individuals, sectors, years)
    and identically normally distributed stochastic component of utility for person i in sector j,
    with a mean of zero and a variance equal to rv
    j
    2
    .
    The log wage for individual i in sector j is modeled by the following:
    Wij
    d
    j Xj
    r
    j fi
    u
    ij
    where Xi is a Lx
    ��1 vector of observable, exogenous variables for person i that enters all
    three sectors, dj is a 1
    ��Lx vector of parameters on the exogenous variables, fi is a scalar
    random factor distributed with a three-point discrete distribution between zero and one
    (the variance of fi is represented byrf2), rj is a scalar sector-specific factor loading, uij is an
    independent (across individuals, sectors, years, and from fi and vij) and identically
    normally distributed stochastic component of utility in sector j for person i, with a mean
    of zero and a variance equal to r
    2
    .
    What more needs to be said that the author has already pontificated upon?
    Last edited by haymarket; 09-04-11 at 06:31 PM.
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The paper you linked to is a prime example of BS wrapped up nice and neat in a fine sheen of gobbledygook and meaningless jargon which says nothing of any substance. I can see why it appealed to you.
    I see that your Masters in Education is paying nice dividends.

    What the paper is revealing is that wages reflect skill levels and skill levels have more to do with intelligence than with specific knowledge that one learned in one's English class. Problem solving abilities, sophistication of analysis, seeing opportunities, exploiting opportunities, taking direction well, etc are more related to intelligence than anything one learned in her "Gender and Oppression" class in the Wymyn's Studies department.

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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Yes, I hear do-rags affect work ethic...
    No doubt they wear them regularly up in Fairfax, don't they? Whether they affect work ethic is irrelevant, whether you survive the interview wearing one is.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I see that your Masters in Education is paying nice dividends.

    What the paper is revealing is that wages reflect skill levels and skill levels have more to do with intelligence than with specific knowledge that one learned in one's English class. Problem solving abilities, sophistication of analysis, seeing opportunities, exploiting opportunities, taking direction well, etc are more related to intelligence than anything one learned in her "Gender and Oppression" class in the Wymyn's Studies department.
    No that is just a value judgment and an opinion based on your own priorities and your own belief system.

    Thank for your concern about my well being. I am doing very well. One thing I learned in life is that when you hear or see something that sounds like just so much BS - say so. There are people who specialize in double talk and learning how to say absolutely nothing in the biggest words and most complicated jargon ever invented. Outside of rather technical math or science, if you cannot explain it so that an average person can comprehend it, it probably is a bunch of crap.
    Last edited by haymarket; 09-04-11 at 06:52 PM.
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    Re: Black unemployment: Highest in 27 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    And this is the heart of the problem. How do we find a balance between two competing interests and two competing values. The job applicant wants to be judged as an individual and not held to account for the stereotype attached to his group. The employer wants to make the best, and most accurate, decision he can. When an employer takes on a new employee the act of hiring and bringing the new employee up to speed represents a considerable investment on the part of the firm and if that employee doesn't work out then that investment is flushed down the drain. The employer seeks out as much information as he can possibly collect in order to minimize the risk to his bottom line - employers who make good hiring decisions will save money compared to firms which make bad hiring decisions.
    Agreed.

    Your position, I take it, is that employers should disregard stereotypes completely and judge the job applicant solely on the information they have available to them that is restricted to just that individual. The problem is that stereotypes are really just probabilities and when you work with a large enough sample set, and the probabilities favor one outcome, you're going to improve your performance metric by relying on the probability calculation. If stereotypes were inaccurate most of the time, then relying on them would actually produce worse outcomes for the employer, or for anyone for that matter.

    So, an employer who adopts your preferred method and rejects relying on stereotypes will be competing against employers who judiciously use stereotypes and if the stereotypes are accurate, then the employer who rejects using them is going to be making more costly hiring mistakes than the employer who uses them. This does not create an incentive for employers to reject information carried by stereotypes.

    The solution here is simple to conceive but very difficult to implement and that solution is that the basis for the stereotype needs to be invalidated. That solution needs to be implemented in the community that is affected by the stereotype.
    No, I don't necessarily think that an employer hiring based on stereotypes is wrong. I mean, if you don't know enough about a person to determine whether or not you should hire them and a certain negative stereotype has a higher chance of being true than not, I would say don't hire them. However, when these sort of decisions take place in a large scale setting you end up with a system that basically puts one group at a disadvantage to another. Many people would regard this as not being fair. Realistically, how much can you really do about it? I am not saying that employers should disregard all stereotypes, that would not make any sense. They should hire based on the best information they have, as you said. It is more of a societal problem than one that can be solved by looking at individual employers. It is because of these problems that we have things like equal opportunity employment, and affirmative action in the US and many other countries. Do these things remedy the problem? Obviously not. Do they create some new problems? Yes. But the reason why we have them is because the way our institutions work to place people of different race and ethnicity at a disadvantage over others.

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