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Thread: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

  1. #21
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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, they aren't comparable. A big part of the reasons the benefits for green energy are hard to overstate is because oil is going to get too expensive for practical use. Countries that are ahead of the curve on green energy are going to make a bundle selling the technology to other countries and their own economies will thrive when the economies of countries that aren't ready are struggling to keep from collapsing.
    Yes, someday oil will probably become too expensive, but, as one of you said here, alternatives are currently too expensive. If alternative energy is as great as you state, the industry should have no problem finding plenty of private investment and we can always compete with foreign competition when we believe in what we are doing. When that happens, government financial support is not needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    It's not dubious... 97% of all climatologists agree that it has been scientifically proven. The other 3% are a mix of those who think it is still an open question and deniers... 97%. That's more than the percentage of biologists that believe in evolution...
    I already said that I believe that global warming is probable. Your comment had to do with minimizing global warming. That is what I said was dubious.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That the temperature has changed in the past has no bearing at all on AGW. That's like saying "I don't believe taking a bullet to the head can kill a person because people died long before guns were invented".
    I already said that I believe that global warming is probable. Your comment had to do with minimizing global warming. That is what I said was dubious.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, in most situations I agree with that philosophy, but there are blind spots that the free market has. One of them is that it is inherently short sighted. In order to compete companies have to focus almost exclusively on the next quarter. In some cases as far out as the next year. In some really unusual cases they focus on 5 years out. But 20 years out? No way. A company can't survive waiting 20 years for a profit, so investments that won't really pay off for 20 years get underinvested in even if they have great returns.
    Alternative energy development and the deveopment of other new industries face the same types of problems. Some new, novel industries never make it off the ground. Some, like the automobile, airplanes, television, and personal computers were developed and succeeded. Alternative energy can do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    An interesting tidbit. Everybody who knows anything about it agrees that nanotechnology will absolutely revolutionize the way human beings live. Probably more even than electricity did. Unimaginable benefits. There really are very few, if any, scientists that disagree with that or don't think it will be possible. Ultimately it will astoundingly profitable. But nonetheless, it's a terrible investment for an individual investor right now. Even with heavy investment it is 20 years out, so investors would be smarter to invest in stocks that are escalating in value now because they are likely to make profits in the short term and then only jump on the nanotech bandwagon when it's close to fruition. So, it gets very light investment from the private sector and instead of being 20 years out it is 80 year out. In my view, investing in the long term is one of the legitimate roles of government. That's how we got the internet. That's the theory behind investing in education as well.
    I would think that something this revolutionary and life-changing would be ripe for lots of investors.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I think the same applies to green energy. It will be profitable, that's a certainty, but it might not be for a while to come still. Government investment gets us over that hump.
    Did Ford get over the hump? Did Bill Gates or Steve Jobs? The need for seed money is not because the product has been proven to investors as being superior and doable, but rather it is a move to get government to pay for a solution to a problem which it may or may not solve and is done for the political reason of forcing the solution on the public, whether it is the best way or not.

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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Warning: Trying to explain basic economic and business principles to a far-rightie can be futile.

    They are more obsessed with proving Al Gore wrong than really understanding how the world works.
    Thank you for attempting to help make my case. You don't need to do that. Now you have a nice evening.

  3. #23
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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    I already said that I believe that global warming is probable. Your comment had to do with minimizing global warming. That is what I said was dubious.
    I'm not sure what you mean then. If you understand AGW then you know that reducing carbon emissions reduces global warming.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Alternative energy development and the deveopment of other new industries face the same types of problems. Some new, novel industries never make it off the ground. Some, like the automobile, airplanes, television, and personal computers were developed and succeeded. Alternative energy can do the same.

    I would think that something this revolutionary and life-changing would be ripe for lots of investors.

    Did Ford get over the hump? Did Bill Gates or Steve Jobs? The need for seed money is not because the product has been proven to investors as being superior and doable, but rather it is a move to get government to pay for a solution to a problem which it may or may not solve and is done for the political reason of forcing the solution on the public, whether it is the best way or not.
    A company that won't make a profit for 20+ years and which will only make one then if it gets enough investment is a terrible investment for an individual. Their money will basically just be sitting there idle for most of those 20 years when it could be invested in something making profits today.

    Now, that isn't all industries. Cars, for example, were pretty rapidly profitable. Computers though, like the internet, were developed primarily by the government for decades before any of those people got involved. Computers were first invented in WWII by the military to crack enigma and the military, DARPA especially, and NASA were the primary investors in computer research for decades before it was ripe for the private sector.

    Think of all the things in your day to day life that were developed, or even invented, by the government. Radio, satellites, microwaves, computers, the internet... I don't believe that the government should just go around willy nilly investing in fads or that most industries require long term government investments to get off the ground, but some do and identifying and properly funding those has always been a key to the economic success of any economic powerhouse. We need to continue setting up the booms that the US will be leading 10, 20, 50, years from now like we've always done in the past or else we're not going to be able to stay on top. Green energy is pretty clearly the next one of those up.

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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Two things:

    First, the people talking about the cars vs. horses were long dead before any discussion of alternative energy.
    my point was that those who argued this were similarly shortsighted.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Second, I don't know why you injected your comment into this conversation. No one here has said anything about alternative energy never going anywhere.
    i commented because i notice posters who seem to rejoice over the failure of any alternative energy startup or service. however, we are only at the beginning; there will be many failures during the transition. it's to be expected.

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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    my point was that those who argued this were similarly shortsighted.

    i commented because i notice posters who seem to rejoice over the failure of any alternative energy startup or service. however, we are only at the beginning; there will be many failures during the transition. it's to be expected.
    I think it is shortsighted to guarantee loans to the tune of over half a billion dollars to a company that goes bankrupt. You did not see any rejoicing in this thread, so you just commented because your fingers could not help it. Is that what happened?

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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean then. If you understand AGW then you know that reducing carbon emissions reduces global warming.
    I am saying that reducing carbon emissions may not reduce global warming. Again, we had global warming in the past and we did not use fossil energy when that occurred. If we were to eliminate our use of fossil fuels and replaced them with alternative energy, we would be in a situation similar to the one that existed the last time we had global warming.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    A company that won't make a profit for 20+ years and which will only make one then if it gets enough investment is a terrible investment for an individual. Their money will basically just be sitting there idle for most of those 20 years when it could be invested in something making profits today.
    Why would it take 20+ years for solar to become profitable. It is in use now and has been for decades. Why can't it make a profit after this amount of time?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Now, that isn't all industries. Cars, for example, were pretty rapidly profitable.
    Really? When Ford built the assembly line, he had to put in the equipment, hire people and had to purchase or have made all of the various parts that went into his automobile. He invested a ton before he ever made a profit. I doubt profitability was rapid.

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Computers though, like the internet, were developed primarily by the government for decades before any of those people got involved. Computers were first invented in WWII by the military to crack enigma and the military, DARPA especially, and NASA were the primary investors in computer research for decades before it was ripe for the private sector.
    Here is a timeline on the development of the computer. Private industry began the development and then the military asked for items that computers would do, but work was performed by private companies. It is one thing to make products for the government and quite another to receive guaranteed loans to develop a product.

    http://www.computerhistory.org/timeline/?year=1939


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Think of all the things in your day to day life that were developed, or even invented, by the government. Radio,
    Marconi and Tesla did not work for the government. The government did not get involved in radio until it took over all of the patents that existed at the time of 1917. The purpose of taking the patents was to prevent the enemy to get their hands on how the radio was built. Again, it is one thing to make something to supply to the government and it is quite another to receive guaranteed loans from the Federal Government.


    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    satellites, microwaves, computers, the internet... I don't believe that the government should just go around willy nilly investing in fads or that most industries require long term government investments to get off the ground, but some do and identifying and properly funding those has always been a key to the economic success of any economic powerhouse. We need to continue setting up the booms that the US will be leading 10, 20, 50, years from now like we've always done in the past or else we're not going to be able to stay on top. Green energy is pretty clearly the next one of those up.
    Again, I believe that we can continue to develop alternative energy sources and expand the production of oil and gas. That is a balanced approach. That approach holds down costs, provides sufficient domestic energy, and gets us to the future without needless losses.

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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    I think it is shortsighted to guarantee loans to the tune of over half a billion dollars to a company that goes bankrupt. [...]
    If the guarantors could have foreseen that the company would go bankrupt, do you really think they would have guaranteed the loan?

    Other thread: http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...its-doors.html

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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    [...] Why would it take 20+ years for solar to become profitable. It is in use now and has been for decades. Why can't it make a profit after this amount of time? [...]
    Because dirty fuel (coal, crude) is cheaper, at least in the short term and from the consumer perspective.

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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    I wonder if these now out of work greenies would welcome Obama like they did when he was wasting their tax money and ours for a ridiculous project that never had a chance in hell of making, because China can make the same product for less than half as much.

    $355 million wasted dollars to fight the HOAX of man caused Global Warming. What Crock O Stuff.

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    re: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    I wonder if these now out of work greenies would welcome Obama like they did when he was wasting their tax money and ours for a ridiculous project that never had a chance in hell of making, because China can make the same product for less than half as much.

    $355 million wasted dollars to fight the HOAX of man caused Global Warming. What Crock O Stuff.
    I love the HOAX that you use all of the time - really jumps out at you. I would have believed in AGW if I weren't saved from scientific understanding by your use of bold fonts in ALL CAPS!
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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