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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

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    Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Obama raids Gibson

    Federal agents swooped in on Gibson Guitar Wednesday, raiding factories and offices in Memphis and Nashville, seizing several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars.

    It isn't the first time that agents of the Fish and Wildlife Service have come knocking at the storied maker of such iconic instruments as the Les Paul electric guitar, the J-160E acoustic-electric John Lennon played, and essential jazz-boxes such as Charlie Christian's ES-150. In 2009 the Feds seized several guitars and pallets of wood from a Gibson factory, and both sides have been wrangling over the goods in a case with the delightful name "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms."
    Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear | Postmodern Times - WSJ.com

    I've always been a little miffed that Gibson prices their stuff out of my range, but damn. Raid them?

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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDan View Post
    Obama raids Gibson



    Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear | Postmodern Times - WSJ.com

    I've always been a little miffed that Gibson prices their stuff out of my range, but damn. Raid them?
    Not sure of the purpose of your thread. Are you pro-illegal purchases??
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Well the problem is this (Feds go after Gibson Guitars — RT)

    Gibson plants in both Nashville and Memphis were raided by the federal government last week, though Gibson Guitars believes that they are in the right. Agents attest, however, that materials used by the manufacturer of such iconic instruments as the Les Paul and SG break international laws.

    “The Federal Department of Justice in Washington DC has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of US law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India,” says Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz in a statement. The legislation in place suggests that if the wood from one tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal, but by completing the process in their Tennessee plant, Gibson is breaking the law. This interpretation comes from federal agents, however, and Gibson notes that last week’s raid took action “without the support and consent of the government in India.”
    Thus, the US went and raided Gibson due to them breaking Indian laws, not American ones. Thus this brings up the questions Will the US start enforcing the laws of other nations in America?
    and 2) Just how much power does the Federal government have?
    Last edited by Mr. Invisible; 09-01-11 at 08:06 AM.
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not sure of the purpose of your thread. Are you pro-illegal purchases??
    it does highlight a concern that is growing among musicians who are subject to travel outside the USA and then return
    i have a modest guitar collection and would be unable to document the source of materials from any of my instruments
    and where any were modified, say using bone as the nut material, i would be unable to prove its source
    i happen to own a les paul with an ebony board (the one featured in the article). like most of my instruments, i bought it used in the 80's. other than a guitar and case i have nothing to document that its materials were legitimately imported. no way would i take that out of country
    other, more recently made guitars from boutique luthiers, tend to use a variety of exotic woods, whose source i could not document
    the point is, those of us who purchased these items in good faith now risk their confiscation as well as criminal punishment and fines
    a distinction should be made between the innocent buyer and the not-so-innocent builders. the feds should be going after those who intended to break the law, placing others of us at risk. that they have gibson in their sights indicates they are
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it does highlight a concern that is growing among musicians who are subject to travel outside the USA and then return
    i have a modest guitar collection and would be unable to document the source of materials from any of my instruments
    and where any were modified, say using bone as the nut material, i would be unable to prove its source
    i happen to own a les paul with an ebony board (the one featured in the article). like most of my instruments, i bought it used in the 80's. other than a guitar and case i have nothing to document that its materials were legitimately imported. no way would i take that out of country
    other, more recently made guitars from boutique luthiers, tend to use a variety of exotic woods, whose source i could not document
    the point is, those of us who purchased these items in good faith now risk their confiscation as well as criminal punishment and fines
    a distinction should be made between the innocent buyer and the not-so-innocent builders. the feds should be going after those who intended to break the law, placing others of us at risk. that they have gibson in their sights indicates they are
    Guitars with rosewood and ebony and other endangered species are too valuable to risk to damage in out of country travel. It would be wise to travel abroad with guitars made from wood legal today. In this country, existing uses of endangered woods are grandfathered. The purpose of the laws are to prevent the trafficking of endangered species.

    "A motion filed last month by the U.S. Department of Justice alleges Gibson Guitar knew it was trafficking in endangered timber when it was busted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in November 2009, reports the Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA)."

    "The federal prosecutors say that while Gibson knew of the questionable timber, and even acknowledged it as such, the guitar-maker went ahead with buying ebony from Nagel, a supplier in Germany. "

    "Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

    Endangered species trafficking: What did Gibson Guitar know?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Obama's days as president are surely numbered.....Would he be so bold, and go after the foriegn markets that do trade with American companies?....NO.

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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by dixiesolutions View Post
    Obama's days as president are surely numbered.....Would he be so bold, and go after the foriegn markets that do trade with American companies?....NO.
    You are right he either has 507 or 1968 days left to be president (my math might be off some).

    What does this have to do with the guitars? Was it Obama who made the decision to raid the Gibson shop?I figured the president was a rather busy job with a lot of things to juggle, I guess I did not realize how many mundane things such as various raids and stuff he has to be involved with personally.
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it does highlight a concern that is growing among musicians who are subject to travel outside the USA and then return
    i have a modest guitar collection and would be unable to document the source of materials from any of my instruments
    and where any were modified, say using bone as the nut material, i would be unable to prove its source
    i happen to own a les paul with an ebony board (the one featured in the article). like most of my instruments, i bought it used in the 80's. other than a guitar and case i have nothing to document that its materials were legitimately imported. no way would i take that out of country
    other, more recently made guitars from boutique luthiers, tend to use a variety of exotic woods, whose source i could not document
    the point is, those of us who purchased these items in good faith now risk their confiscation as well as criminal punishment and fines
    a distinction should be made between the innocent buyer and the not-so-innocent builders. the feds should be going after those who intended to break the law, placing others of us at risk. that they have gibson in their sights indicates they are
    And you shouldnt have to account for the materials in the guitar. You bought a guitar not a piece of wood. This all total bull****.
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    And you shouldnt have to account for the materials in the guitar. You bought a guitar not a piece of wood. This all total bull****.
    You don't have to account for the materials in your guitar in this country, existing uses are grandfathered. However, it is illegal to traffic endangered species which is what Gibson is alleged to to have done. See Post #5 above.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    I am not sure how I feel about this story, one the one hand I understand the need to protect the trees in a protected forest, but there is a greater issue that should be addressed that threatens the Nation in areas of education, the budget deficit, jobs, and our security.

    That issue is illegal aliens, and the total lack of concern for this situation by Obama's lackeys is no surprise, and neither is the wood raid because it's a conservation issue.

    Obama's "stimulus plan" gave Solyndra a "green" Co. $535 million and Obama Talked about how this was the wave of the future and it turns out it was and now they are going under but not before billionaire George Kaiser a supporter of Solyndra managed to raise $50,000 and $100,000 that went in to the DNC, Kaiser personally gave $53,500 to Obama’s 2008 campaign.

    So was the $535 million a pay back? And isn't obvious the a Co. that needs $535 million is not worthy of of getting it.

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