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US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

Eighty Deuce said:
That would seem incorrect. Many do use the same kind of wood. And trust me that Madagascar rosewood comes from Madagascar. The issue with that particular wood at this time was that it was cut from protected forests in Madagascar, and not from unrestricted forests. Its more abundant in the former, a practice with endangered wood all over.

We do not know that others have, or have not, gotten suspect shipments. My experience would tell me that a lot of the wood out there is dirty, if any of it is.
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then give us your proof that other manufacturers are violating the lacey act
all you are telling us is your speculation
the government needs a valid basis to conduct a raid on a lacey act violator
you have offered no such basis
 
sangha said:
Yes

There has been no evidence posted to support your assumption and "largely the same sources" is not the same as "the same sources"
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Well, then you seem to not understand the industry...

It's as sweet a sound as you can imagine. A $10,000 guitar expertly crafted by the hands of Dave Berkowitz, a master luthier in Washington, D.C.
But Berkowitz's guitars include fretboards and bridges made from Indian rosewood and ebony, which the U.S. Fish and Wildlife service declared to be illegal to import in its actions against Gibson Guitar back in August. Now, every time Berkowitz uses that wood to build his immaculate instruments, he is potentially breaking the law.
"I use the exact same ebony and rosewood fingerboards that were confiscated in August from Gibson," Berkowitz told Fox News.
Does that mean he is "engaging in illegal business practices?"
"Well, technically speaking, yes, because they have declared the materials I'm using illegal," he said.
But whether the Indian rosewood and ebony that Berkowitz and Gibson -- and so many other guitar makers -- use is really illegal depends on who is asked.
According to the Indian government, fingerboard "blanks" -- the wood that will eventually become a guitar's fretboard -- are legal to export.
"Fingerboard is a finished product and not wood in primary form," Vinod Srivastava, India's deputy director-general of foreign trade, stipulated in a letter dated Sept. 16. "The foreign trade policy of the government of India allows free export of such finished products of wood."
The U.S. government disagrees. In its affidavit to search Gibson, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service considers fingerboard blanks to be raw materials, not finished product -- illegal to export from India and, therefore, illegal to import into the United States.
What's more, according to the complaint, the Gibson wood was imported with an incorrect tariff code, which was off by one digit from the correct code. Luthiers Mercantile International, the company that imports the wood for Gibson, claims that was a simple clerical error. The difference in the codes refers to the thickness of the wood -- more than or less than six millimeters in thickness.


Read more: After Gibson Raid, Other Guitar Makers at Risk of Breaking Law | Fox News
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j-mac
 
Ockham said:
Then post the other guitar company's who were raided. It's real simple...
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Why is this relevant in application to the Lacey Act, other businesses were "targeted". The Lacey Act is not exclusive to guitar manufacturers.
 
justabubba said:
then give us your proof that other manufacturers are violating the lacey act
all you are telling us is your speculation
the government needs a valid basis to conduct a raid on a lacey act violator
you have offered no such basis
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Clearly I have not proof !! If I did, I believe that I would be in violation of the law !! I never claimed "proof". What I did claim was years of experience in dealing with the import and export of CITES listed flora and fauna. And Madagascar. Part of Gibson's problem was Madagascar Rosewood, a CITES Appendix III species, and government corruption over there. These topics I'm a friggin genius in ;)
 
Eighty Deuce said:
Clearly I have not proof !! If I did, I believe that I would be in violation of the law !! I never claimed "proof". What I did claim was years of experience in dealing with the import and export of CITES listed flora and fauna. And Madagascar. Part of Gibson's problem was Madagascar Rosewood, a CITES Appendix III species, and government corruption over there. These topics I'm a friggin genius in ;)
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i will accept that no, you have nothing
 
Eighty Deuce said:
We may be in some agreement here. Unfortunately, the above standard places an onus on the importer to verify and attest to that which it cannot attest. If there is government corruption in another country during the chain of possession, it is impractical beyond reason to punish the importer.

As noted by another who said that "plants and animals have more rights than people", there is merit to this argument. The initial public outcry of the late 60's and early 70's over the harvesting of such as rhino horns and elephant ivory led to the creation of both our own endangered species list, and the empowerment of our USF&W with extraordinary reach, but also the creation of CITES, based out of Switzerland, and now with over 120 member countries. CITES is like a worldwide Endangered and Threatened Species Act. It has no enforcement authority, except to make recommendations to its member countries. Many of those member countries enforce the CITES recommendations in complete agreement. Others not so much. Others are so poor and corrupt it can be as a joke.

The animal and plant police are probably the closest thing we have to a Gestapo in the US. Its the same over-reach that we read about almost daily where American citizens lose their livelihood by the thousands because of some useless minnow.

The Lacey Act is one huge over-reach, in that it enables the Federal Government with all manner of excessive power without what most would view as due process. Gibson Guitar is a most perfect example.
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You have no argument from me. That why I have said repeatedly that the law should be abolished and a new law drafted in the same spirit as Lacey but with a greater defined responsibilities, guidelines and procedures.
 
j-mac said:
Who's law? As far as I know, this is about the finger board blanks not being finished by Indian workers...So now we enforce Indian law?


j-mac
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For the benefit of you and others that haven't kept up:

""The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

"Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
 
Eighty Deuce said:
No. I don't believe anyone has said that seizure is uncommon. But to go four years without being charged, or without getting your wood back, is one of the main issues here.
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Sometimes criminal investigations take years. Again, nothing out of the norm.
 
Catawba said:
For the benefit of you and others that haven't kept up:

""The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

"Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
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Oh, I am keeping up just fine Cat, or was that jab meant to encourage something you could report? Look, I am aware that the Government case includes some form of tariff code that they say was wrong because it was off by one number, a clear clerical error.

This in no way was the original reason for the raid. Reports cited at the time that government officials believed Gibson to be in violation of Indian laws that require these veneers to be "finished" by Indian workers, and even though the Indian government states on more than one occasion that the product was legal, Holders DoJ, along with the Enviro-nuts in control of fish and wildlife, overstepped here. Now that their hand is caught in the cookie jar of heavy handed intimidation that Himmler would be proud of, they, and others are relying on obfuscation, disinformation, and dissembling to misdirect their malfeasance

And you defend it with more of the same...Are you proud?


j-mac
 
Catawba said:
For the benefit of you and others that haven't kept up:

""The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

"Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
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The EIA is a private organization. Like the Sierra Club. Additionally, it is my understanding from earlier posts that there was not a "ban" on the export of these woods at the time, but that Madagascar imposed the ban after it got caught in cahoots with a crime syndicate over there allowing the harvesting of timber from protected land. That's what Wikipedia says, and its what I was told by my exporter in Madagascar. In fact, there are still recriminations going on in Madagascar over who got caught doing what.

The issue is due process. Can you show us where four years is "due process" ? Just saying so is not convincing.
 
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Eighty Deuce said:
That would seem incorrect. Many do use the same kind of wood. And trust me that Madagascar rosewood comes from Madagascar. The issue with that particular wood at this time was that it was cut from protected forests in Madagascar, and not from unrestricted forests. Its more abundant in the former, a practice with endangered wood all over.

We do not know that others have, or have not, gotten suspect shipments. My experience would tell me that a lot of the wood out there is dirty, if any of it is.
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And your argument would seem disingenously dishonest because the original question did not only ask about the "same types of wood". It also asked about the sources

But you knew that already, didn't you?
 
j-mac said:
Who's law? As far as I know, this is about the finger board blanks not being finished by Indian workers...So now we enforce Indian law?


j-mac
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Umm, after all this discussion, you *still* don't realize that we're talking about the Lacey Act, which is US law?
 
Eighty Deuce said:
No. I don't believe anyone has said that seizure is uncommon. But to go four years without being charged, or without getting your wood back, is one of the main issues here.
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No, the main issues are the dishonest claims by Ockham that Gibson was singled out, that the 6th Amend has been violated, and that it's Obamas' doing
 
Eighty Deuce said:
The EIA is a private organization. Like the Sierra Club.

The issue is due process. Can you show us where four years is "due process" ? Just saying so is not convincing.
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And do we actually expect the government would claim that Gibson DIDN'T illegally import it and that both raids were a mistake? :lamo I mean common...
If they've got the proof as they claim that Gibson "knowingly imported tainted wood", what's taking 4 years to prosecute in a court? If it's as cut and dry as Catwaba claims, this is a slam dunk.


Problem is... the bull**** coming from the government doesn't match the actions. I'd like to see it go to court so we can find out the facts.
 
j-mac said:
Well, then you seem to not understand the industry...




j-mac
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You have proven, over and over, that you do not understand the issues being discussed. You don't even understand that we're discussing a US law known as The Lacey Act
 
Catawba said:
For the benefit of you and others that haven't kept up:

""The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

"Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
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Here is the language used in the emails.


Connery said:
Gibson will have to overcome the following:

The filing also referred to internal Gibson e-mails: "[A] Gibson employee…wrote that '[t]he true Ebony species preferred by Gibson Musical Instruments is found only in Madagascar (Diospryos perrieri). This is a slow-growing tree species with very little conservation protection and supplies are considered to be highly threatened in its native environment due to over exploitation.' In fact, [he] spent two and a half weeks in Madagascar this June [2008],' writing on his return, 'I represented our company along with two other guitar manufacturers ... All legal timber and wood exports are prohibited because of wide spread corruption and theft of valuable woods like rosewood and ebony.'"

"On February 25, 2009, in a reference to the potential long term solution, [he] wrote…that the company Maderas Barber ‘has been in the business a long time and may be able to help begin some legitimate harvests. Mr. [Roger] Thunam on the other hand should now be able to supply Nagel with all the rosewood and ebony for the grey market.'"
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DOJ Says Gibson Lacks Legal Standing to Claim Ownership of Ebony : Home Furnishings Business
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Connery said:
You have no argument from me. That why I have said repeatedly that the law should be abolished and a new law drafted in the same spirit as Lacey but with a greater defined responsibilities, guidelines and procedures.
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Agreed. It is politically tough loosening any of the eco-laws though.
 
j-mac said:
Oh, I am keeping up just fine Cat, or was that jab meant to encourage something you could report? Look, I am aware that the Government case includes some form of tariff code that they say was wrong because it was off by one number, a clear clerical error.

This in no way was the original reason for the raid.
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Of course not, as I just quoted,

"The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

"Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."
 
j-mac said:
Oh, I am keeping up just fine Cat, or was that jab meant to encourage something you could report? Look, I am aware that the Government case includes some form of tariff code that they say was wrong because it was off by one number, a clear clerical error.

This in no way was the original reason for the raid. Reports cited at the time that government officials believed Gibson to be in violation of Indian laws that require these veneers to be "finished" by Indian workers, and even though the Indian government states on more than one occasion that the product was legal, Holders DoJ, along with the Enviro-nuts in control of fish and wildlife, overstepped here. Now that their hand is caught in the cookie jar of heavy handed intimidation that Himmler would be proud of, they, and others are relying on obfuscation, disinformation, and dissembling to misdirect their malfeasance

And you defend it with more of the same...Are you proud?


j-mac
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No, you obviously are not keeping up since you are still operating under the delusion that Gibson is being investigated for a violation of Indian law when you've been told several times that they are being investigated for a violation of the Lacey Act, which is a US law

And you keep posting the idiocy that we're talking about Indian law...Are you proud?
 
Eighty Deuce said:
The EIA is a private organization. Like the Sierra Club. Additionally, it is my understanding from earlier posts that there was not a "ban" on the export of these woods at the time, but that Madagascar imposed the ban after it got caught in cahoots with a crime syndicate over there allowing the harvesting of timber from protected land. That's what Wikipedia says, and its what I was told by my exporter in Madagascar. In fact, there are still recriminations going on in Madagascar over who got caught doing what.

The issue is due process. Can you show us where four years is "due process" ? Just saying so is not convincing.
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Can you show where four years in such a case is NOT "due process". Just saying it's not is not convincing
 
Ockham said:
And do we actually expect the government would claim that Gibson DIDN'T illegally import it and that both raids were a mistake? :lamo I mean common...
If they've got the proof as they claim that Gibson "knowingly imported tainted wood", what's taking 4 years to prosecute in a court? If it's as cut and dry as Catwaba claims, this is a slam dunk.


Problem is... the bull**** coming from the government doesn't match the actions. I'd like to see it go to court so we can find out the facts.
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I agree. And the eco-police can be exceedingly over-bearing and over-reaching. To be candid, the vast majority of USF&W folks that I work with are great. Very professional. BUT ... when one wants to be a dick, there is nothing to restrain them. There is so much potential for subjective interpretations with all of this that sometimes your strategy is just "don't piss them off".
 
Ockham said:
And do we actually expect the government would claim that Gibson DIDN'T illegally import it and that both raids were a mistake? :lamo I mean common...
If they've got the proof as they claim that Gibson "knowingly imported tainted wood", what's taking 4 years to prosecute in a court? If it's as cut and dry as Catwaba claims, this is a slam dunk.


Problem is... the bull**** coming from the government doesn't match the actions. I'd like to see it go to court so we can find out the facts.
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No, the bull**** is coming from you. An example would be your bull**** claim that the govt has said it has proof that Gibson "knowingly imported tainted wood"
 
sangha said:
Can you show where four years in such a case is NOT "due process". Just saying it's not is not convincing
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Again. That is to prove a negative. Four years without being charged, or a hearing so that there can be a finding, is absurd to me as an American. I know of no precedent for such. It is my belief that this type of crap only exists in the world of eco law.
 
Eighty Deuce said:
Again. That is to prove a negative. Four years without being charged, or a hearing so that there can be a finding, is absurd to me as an American. I know of no precedent for such. It is my belief that this type of crap only exists in the world of eco law.
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I'll add "not understanding what a negative is" to the List of Dishonest Arguments that have been used in this thread

Hint: What is "disturbing to you" does not mean it is not "due process"
 
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