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US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

BmanMcfly said:
I mostly stopped following, so maybe this has changed... but the lack of any actual CHARGES against Gibson should be viewed as evidence of their innocence OR that the claims against them are frivolous. Hell, aren't they still not even charged from the PREVIOUS raid some years ago??
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So you prefer charges be brought before criminal investigations are completed. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Just read the article...especially the update
Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
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From your article, "The government appears to be preparing to charge the famous builder of instruments with trafficking in illegally obtained wood." Thanks for sharing that.

Our Constitution assigns its enumerated legislative powers to the Congress, and does not permit Congress to delegate its lawmaking function to the executive or the judicial branch. This structural protection had two purposes: it guaranteed that those who made the law were accountable to the people, and it ensured that the laws were made by the body best suited for deliberation.
The source:
The Claremont Institute - Is the EPA "The Very Definition of Tyranny"?
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Thanks for the "opinion" by the conservative Claremont Institute. Now do you have proof that Gibson is innocent of the alleged criminal activity?
 
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Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:
So you prefer charges be brought before criminal investigations are completed. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
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Except when its' a democrat being investigated. Notice that the wingnuts aren't complaining about any investigations concerning democrats, even if there have been no indictments issued

Rightwingers have no principles. Just slogans that they repeat when convenient, and discard when inconvenient. All they care about is "winning". They're addicted to winning

charlie-sheen-winning-resized-600.png
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:
So you prefer charges be brought before criminal investigations are completed. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
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Umm, no.

Here's the process :
- Police gather evidence enough to show probable cause of a crime taking place, this gets them a warrant.
- Police use that warrant to get all the evidence of a crime as possible,
- Police press charges based on that evidence against those that are shown to have a level of guilt... this is typically done while the person awaiting charges is in holding, or as soon as possible afterwards... NOT SEVERAL YEARS LATER AFTER a SECOND warrant, second raid and a second round of arrests.

The fact that they KNEW WHAT THE CHARGES WERE GOING TO BE, yet were never filed, in spite of a VERY LONG TIME following the search of the premises and the confiscation of property which was said to be in violation... Seriously, woods are NOT THAT complex of a material to draw conclusions from.

If these conclusions cannot be drawn, then either the law is asinine, rendering illegal what cannot be proven. Or possibly, he's not in violation of any of these laws and is just being persecuted for the crime of providing jobs and a quality product to americans built by americans.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:
So you prefer charges be brought before criminal investigations are completed. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
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Well if Gibson was raided in 2009 and have yet to be charged and again in 2011 and have yet to be charged, this would appear to me to be a violation of the fourth and sixth amendment.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

BmanMcfly said:
Umm, no.

Here's the process :
- Police gather evidence enough to show probable cause of a crime taking place, this gets them a warrant.
- Police use that warrant to get all the evidence of a crime as possible,
- Police press charges based on that evidence against those that are shown to have a level of guilt... this is typically done while the person awaiting charges is in holding, or as soon as possible afterwards... NOT SEVERAL YEARS LATER AFTER a SECOND warrant, second raid and a second round of arrests.

The fact that they KNEW WHAT THE CHARGES WERE GOING TO BE, yet were never filed, in spite of a VERY LONG TIME following the search of the premises and the confiscation of property which was said to be in violation... Seriously, woods are NOT THAT complex of a material to draw conclusions from.

If these conclusions cannot be drawn, then either the law is asinine, rendering illegal what cannot be proven. Or possibly, he's not in violation of any of these laws and is just being persecuted for the crime of providing jobs and a quality product to americans built by americans.
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You are wrong. The police often get more than one warrant before charging anyone of a crime. Your dishonest portrayal of the process is not evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Feds. It is evidence that the rightwingers have no principles, though
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Well if Gibson was raided in 2009 and have yet to be charged and again in 2011 and have yet to be charged, this would appear to me to be a violation of the fourth and sixth amendment.
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IIRC, this is about the 5th time you've claimed that something done regarding this case was unconstitutional. Don't you have any other argument besides the inane "unconstitutional" rant?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
Except when its' a democrat being investigated. Notice that the wingnuts aren't complaining about any investigations concerning democrats, even if there have been no indictments issued

Rightwingers have no principles. Just slogans that they repeat when convenient, and discard when inconvenient. All they care about is "winning". They're addicted to winning

charlie-sheen-winning-resized-600.png
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Isn't this thread about Gibson Guitar?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
IIRC, this is about the 5th time you've claimed that something done regarding this case was unconstitutional. Don't you have any other argument besides the inane "unconstitutional" rant?
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Isn't our most basic laws and rights based off the constitution? When some one is charged with a crime and they think they have been wrongly accused, isn't the constitution the document we all refer to. If you think I am wrong then state your case why you think so.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Isn't our most basic laws and rights based off the constitution? When some one is charged with a crime and they think they have been wrongly accused, isn't the constitution the document we all refer to. If you think I am wrong then state your case why you think so.
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Your argument is becoming incoherent. One minute, you're complaining that Gibson hasn't been charged with a crime, and the next you're claiming that they have been charged with a crime.

And there's nothing unconstitutional about being wrongly accused of a crime. You're spouting nonsense again.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Isn't our most basic laws and rights based off the constitution? When some one is charged with a crime and they think they have been wrongly accused, isn't the constitution the document we all refer to. If you think I am wrong then state your case why you think so.
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i must have missed them

what are the bases gibson is asserting as being unConstitutional in the way the federal authorities have acted in this matter?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
Your argument is becoming incoherent. One minute, you're complaining that Gibson hasn't been charged with a crime, and the next you're claiming that they have been charged with a crime.

And there's nothing unconstitutional about being wrongly accused of a crime. You're spouting nonsense again.
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Sangha stop with the word games, you know what I am saying and further more I didn't mention Gibson on that post. You complained about my rant and I am explaining to why rant..and you know that to.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Sangha stop with the word games, you know what I am saying and further more I didn't mention Gibson on that post. You complained about my rant and I am explaining to why rant..and you know that to.
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No word games from me. I know what you're saying and I know that you're wrong. That's why you can't clearly explain anything that is unconstitutional.

You said it was unconstitutional to have one raid, and then another without any charges being filed. You're wrong. There's nothing in the constitution that says the govt cant do that. That's why you STILL haven't explained how its unconstitutional, and why you will never explain it.

Again, the police can issue multiple warrants and conduct multiple raids before issuing an indictment. The govt can also wrongly accuse someone of a crime. It happens all the time. They just can't knowingly accuse someone if they know that they are innocent.
 
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Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

justabubba said:
i must have missed them

what are the bases gibson is asserting as being unConstitutional in the way the federal authorities have acted in this matter?
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No one is asserting anything yet, this is my observation so far and the 4th and 6th amendment is pretty clear, not saying this will be the strategy for Gibson but it could play a part.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

BmanMcfly said:
Umm, no.

Here's the process :
- Police gather evidence enough to show probable cause of a crime taking place, this gets them a warrant.
- Police use that warrant to get all the evidence of a crime as possible,
- Police press charges based on that evidence against those that are shown to have a level of guilt... this is typically done while the person awaiting charges is in holding, or as soon as possible afterwards... NOT SEVERAL YEARS LATER AFTER a SECOND warrant, second raid and a second round of arrests.

The fact that they KNEW WHAT THE CHARGES WERE GOING TO BE, yet were never filed, in spite of a VERY LONG TIME following the search of the premises and the confiscation of property which was said to be in violation... Seriously, woods are NOT THAT complex of a material to draw conclusions from.

If these conclusions cannot be drawn, then either the law is asinine, rendering illegal what cannot be proven. Or possibly, he's not in violation of any of these laws and is just being persecuted for the crime of providing jobs and a quality product to americans built by americans.
Click to expand...

Your post indicates you are not familiar with the EIA:

"EIA investigations into environmental crime generate valuable information for professional enforcement officers which can help shape their tactics and strategies."
Enforcement Assistance - EIA International

Also see the Affidavit (I posted above) for the search warrant they received:
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
No one is asserting anything yet, this is my observation so far and the 4th and 6th amendment is pretty clear, not saying this will be the strategy for Gibson but it could play a part.
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then why the hell did you post this misguided rant?:
deltabtry said:
Isn't our most basic laws and rights based off the constitution? When some one is charged with a crime and they think they have been wrongly accused, isn't the constitution the document we all refer to. If you think I am wrong then state your case why you think so.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
No word games from me. I know what you're saying and I know that you're wrong. That's why you can't clearly explain anything that is unconstitutional.

, and then another without any charges being filed. You're wrong. There's nothing in the constitution that says the govt cant do that. That's why you STILL haven't explained how its unconstitutional, and why you will never explain it.

Again, the police can issue multiple warrants and conduct multiple raids before issuing an indictment. The govt can also wrongly accuse someone of a crime. It happens all the time. They just can't knowingly accuse someone if they know that they are innocent.
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No read my post again, I said very clearly now, "it would appear" this is a far cry to want you think I said and I quote, "You said it was unconstitutional to have one raid".
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
No read my post again, I said very clearly now, "it would appear" this is a far cry to want you think I said and I quote, "You said it was unconstitutional to have one raid".
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But it does NOT appear to be a violation of the constitution. Just because you say so (repeatedly) that doesn't make it true, or even rational.

And if I've misunderstood your meaning in any way. it's only because you have not posted ANY evidence to support your inane claim. If it's not the multiple raids, or the multiple warrants, or the fact that there hasn't been any charges YET, then why don't you tell us exactly what is unconstitutional instead of just repeating your absurd rants?

It is YOU who is suggesting unconstitutionality. It's time to man up and post exactly what was done that is unconstitutional. Or if you prefer weasel words, tell us what "appears" to be unconstitutional
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Well if Gibson was raided in 2009 and have yet to be charged and again in 2011 and have yet to be charged, this would appear to me to be a violation of the fourth and sixth amendment.
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I have highlighted the key words in your statement above that does not equate to Gibson's innocence of the alleged criminal activity.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

justabubba said:
then why the hell did you post this misguided rant?:
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My post were clear and read them in order, nothing misguided here. What you guys are trying to do is trip me up on the wording, now that is being disingenuous in regards to this debate.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
My post were clear and read them in order, nothing misguided here. What you guys are trying to do is trip me up on the wording, now that is being disingenuous in regards to this debate.
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Just post specifics about this so-called "appearance" of unconstitutionality.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
My post were clear and read them in order, nothing misguided here. What you guys are trying to do is trip me up on the wording, now that is being disingenuous in regards to this debate.
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yes
your being unable to articulate what you intend to say is our fault
your being unable to defend what you post is our fault
got it
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Isn't our most basic laws and rights based off the constitution? When some one is charged with a crime and they think they have been wrongly accused, isn't the constitution the document we all refer to. If you think I am wrong then state your case why you think so.
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Fortunately, our laws are based on the court's interpretation of the Constitution, not on your interpretation, or the conservative Claremont Institute's interpretation.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:
I have highlighted the key words in your statement above that does not equate to Gibson's innocence of the alleged criminal activity.
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What it all boils down to is that the authorities may have skipped a constitutional processes. I only interested in the constitutional rights being protected from a ever increasing aggressive government. Whether Gibson is guilty or not will be for the courts to decide but Gibson should be afforded all constitutional rights. Have been raid in 2009 and no charges brought forth...what's going on? Then yet another raid and no charged being brought forth, if a crime has been committed the charge the accused.
 
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