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US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

Then what's the docket # for the civil case? Just to be clear - I'm not looking for a statement to the public from the government about the case, I want the case number. You know... when there's a lawsuit issued in this country it's assigned a court case # and then is put on the docket with a judge. Since you're into facts... what's the case # or docket #?

When you don't provide one... I'll know your facts are just more opinion... and I really don't care about your opinion so I won't thank you for it. :lamo

This is why you have been unable to find a docket #:

"Nicholas Chavez, a New Mexico-based Fish and Wildlife Service agent, said investigators also presented a criminal case to the Justice Department after the 2009 raid. While no charges have yet to be filed, federal prosecutors in Nashville recently asked a judge to temporarily suspend the civil case while a criminal investigation is pursued."
Gibson Guitar chief denies wrongdoing after raids | The Tennessean | tennessean.com
 
Yes, but the DOJ seems to want to apply Indian law in the United States. I'm still not convinced there is a civil suit pending since I've found (nor has anyone else posted) a case # or docket # against Gibson. What's more interesting is that Fender and other guitar makers also purchase their woods from the same places yet they haven't been raided at all.

Ya, and the CEO of Fender happens to be a big Obama contributor. Kinda like how GE and the other Obama contributors landed money from the bailouts.

They probably realized after the raid that they didn't have anything to actually pursue, but were already committed to ruining this american business. God forbid anything productive be allowed to carry on in the US... the only thing floating the US economy as it is is that the world must use the dollar as a world reserve currency.

This is why you have been unable to find a docket #:

"Nicholas Chavez, a New Mexico-based Fish and Wildlife Service agent, said investigators also presented a criminal case to the Justice Department after the 2009 raid. While no charges have yet to be filed, federal prosecutors in Nashville recently asked a judge to temporarily suspend the civil case while a criminal investigation is pursued."
Gibson Guitar chief denies wrongdoing after raids | The Tennessean | tennessean.com

Oh, I get it so, now in the land of the free you are guilty until proven innocent. That's a good policy to start.

And someone said the term "draconian" was too nebulous, but the term suits, being as this is an unusually severe enforcement of the laws... which aren't even laws in the country in which these laws are being pursued.

So, what do you say the limits should be to this new process of law enforcement in america?? Sharia law is law in some countries, so does that mean that we in America now must follow sharia law because we have to be accepting of other cultures (or whatever banal justification is actually used)?? Would that suit your grand-children?? Hey, good idea, creating a situation where a country is no longer sovereign enough to decide on it's own laws, but instead we gotta go be "internationally" recognized laws...

You DO realize that MOST countries in the world are NOT free in the sense that we think of america as a free country, right? So, unless you think prefer concepts like slavery or serfdom over concepts of "freedom" and "self-determination", you should be just as concerned over the potential legal precedences that could be set with this case.

So, again, the loss of a few trees is really a secondary issue when put in the scope of what this case can mean for the future of american society.
 
Ya, and the CEO of Fender happens to be a big Obama contributor. Kinda like how GE and the other Obama contributors landed money from the bailouts.

They probably realized after the raid that they didn't have anything to actually pursue, but were already committed to ruining this american business. God forbid anything productive be allowed to carry on in the US... the only thing floating the US economy as it is is that the world must use the dollar as a world reserve currency.



Oh, I get it so, now in the land of the free you are guilty until proven innocent. That's a good policy to start.

And someone said the term "draconian" was too nebulous, but the term suits, being as this is an unusually severe enforcement of the laws... which aren't even laws in the country in which these laws are being pursued.

So, what do you say the limits should be to this new process of law enforcement in america?? Sharia law is law in some countries, so does that mean that we in America now must follow sharia law because we have to be accepting of other cultures (or whatever banal justification is actually used)?? Would that suit your grand-children?? Hey, good idea, creating a situation where a country is no longer sovereign enough to decide on it's own laws, but instead we gotta go be "internationally" recognized laws...

You DO realize that MOST countries in the world are NOT free in the sense that we think of america as a free country, right? So, unless you think prefer concepts like slavery or serfdom over concepts of "freedom" and "self-determination", you should be just as concerned over the potential legal precedences that could be set with this case.

So, again, the loss of a few trees is really a secondary issue when put in the scope of what this case can mean for the future of american society.


What it means is simply that if you don't contribute to Obama, or use union labor, then the DoJ brown shirts might come knocking.

J-mac
 
What it means is simply that if you don't contribute to Obama, or use union labor, then the DoJ brown shirts might come knocking.

J-mac

Or, that Gibson has been breaking the law and the other guitar manufacturers have been following the law.
 
Or, that Gibson has been breaking the law and the other guitar manufacturers have been following the law.

Even when everyone gets the wood from the same supplier going through the same certification process??? You are kinda naive as well to think people might get favors / punished for political reasons.

Now, if we were talking about a fortune 100 company doing this, then that would be a different story, and in all likelihood they would not be getting punished except maybe a slap on the wrist... like a 2 million dollar fine on a 2 BILLION dollar crime.
 
Even when everyone gets the wood from the same supplier going through the same certification process???

Where is your proof they went through the same certification process, or is that just your hunch?

As documented above: "The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."

Let's see your proof that refutes that assessment by the EIA?
 
Where is your proof they went through the same certification process, or is that just your hunch?

As documented above: "The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."

Let's see your proof that refutes that assessment by the EIA?

while he is at it, how about also showing us evidence that this is selective enforcement
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I've played the 4 string version - late 70's natural through a Hartke rig - very nice! I've been on the hunt for a 4003 5-string, not the modified 4-string but the actual fiver since Rick stopped making them a while back. They're hard to come by and when I have seen them, quite expensive. If among your travels you see one... I'd sure be interested!
I was trying to teach myself how to play a bass for a while. I played an double bass in high school. I've actually been to the Gibson factory in Memphis.
 
The only thing that is obvious from your posts is that you have no knowledge with which to base your uneducated opinions. I would suggest you wait for more facts to come out, but, I know from past experience that will not stop you, so continue to rant away and roll your eyes if it makes you feel better!

What is obvious to everyone familiar with you is that you resort to insults when you are unable to refute another poster's comments, like you just did.

It's also obvious to everyone that you didn't even address the quotes I posted, much less rebut them. THAT says a lot about you.
 
The only thing thats obvious is that your posts have no basis in reality. You have consistently mistated the facts

Perhaps you'd like to do what Catawba was unable to and point out the facts from the quotes I posted that are misstated or no basis in reality.

Was Juszkiewicz not invited to Obama's campaign speech tonight ???

Was the wood not certified by the Forest Stewardship Council ??

Your "well thought out" rebuttal along with your proof will be eagerly awaited .............. But I won't hold my breath waiting for it. Your's and Catawba's style lean more toward the kamikaze attack, then when challenged you run back to mommy's basement.
 
Where is your proof they went through the same certification process, or is that just your hunch?

As documented above: "The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."

Let's see your proof that refutes that assessment by the EIA?

Well, the fact that even your admission shows that gibson is the victim of a fraud to start, that he has documentation, listen to the interviews the CEO of Gibson gives where he's fighting back tears because his company took every effort to work within the law, and because the last attempt to determine that they were buying illegal wood never worked out and they were never charged.

Oh and also, ever heard of the presumption of innocence... And this is the first time where ive heard of a law geared towards people that are victims of another's crime and can be found guilty.

Thing is, in the Lacey act you are still in violation of the law even I you are the victim of fraud. Can you at least admit that this is a bad precedent to set??

What next, do we start charging victims of theft? Vandalism? Rape?
 
What is obvious to everyone familiar with you is that you resort to insults when you are unable to refute another poster's comments, like you just did.
if you feel you are insulted, there is a mechanism available on the bottom left of each post to notify the mods. you should activate it; (look for a triangular symbol). i don't see any insult, but then i am certainly not a mod. assuming you failed to alert the mods when you saw what you believed to be an insult, then your rant is found to be a diversion to avoid addressing what had been posted in response to you

It's also obvious to everyone that you didn't even address the quotes I posted, much less rebut them. THAT says a lot about you.
let me play. in blue font, we will find what you posted and of which you whined about not receiving a response:
Gibson and their allies are not going down without a fight. I hope Obama sees him and realizes who he is.
the authorities appear to be collecting evidence to determine to what extent, if any, gibson has violated the federal law. gibson says it wants its day in court. if the government acquires the evidence it needs to bring a case forward, gibson will receive its wish

i am unable to respond to your reference to Obama and the allies of gibson. only you seem you know of such nexus and you have chosen not to share those closely held insights. hopefully, you are aware we are not mind readers

It is obvious that the justice dept. is interpreting an Indian law differently than the Indian government is. The wood obtained by Gibson is certified by the Forest Stewardship Council as having been legally harvested. It appears that the wood would be ok if Gibson contracted to an Indian company to have it finished then shipped to Gibson for installation.

Sounds like a good way to increase American employment to me. :roll:
and if gibson has the documentation you insist it possesses, then it will prevail in court - if prosecution makes a case
my speculation, based on some of the statements found in this thread, is that gibson may have manipulated the documents for fret board wood to be assigned a numeric code to describe them as something other than what they were actually found to be. if true, then that may constitute a form of fraudulent behavior

this is found to be an objective description of the matter; i commend it to you; Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
 
Perhaps you'd like to do what Catawba was unable to and point out the facts from the quotes I posted that are misstated or no basis in reality.
this thread has been rife with cites describing what is going on ... at least to the extent the authorities have publicly exposed what they know
if you choose not to peruse the thread to read them then here is an excellent overview: Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR

Was Juszkiewicz not invited to Obama's campaign speech tonight ???
why would we be expected to know this information and how is it germane to the topic?

Was the wood not certified by the Forest Stewardship Council ??
i do not know this information. but it appears gibson's documentation identifies the fretboard wood to be something other than the sawn wood exceeding 8mm, which it was purported to be; (musical instrument components and veneer wood were cited as how gibson had - potentially - misclassified the sawn wood)

Your "well thought out" rebuttal along with your proof will be eagerly awaited .............. But I won't hold my breath waiting for it. Your's and Catawba's style lean more toward the kamikaze attack, then when challenged you run back to mommy's basement.
we will all be awaiting information to learn whether the federal government levies a criminal charge against gibson. at this time, with the limited factual information available, we are all engaging in speculation
in your previous post, you objected to what you perceived to be an insult. do you not believe that your expression "... when challenged you run back to mommy's basement" to be found insulting. those you insulted can activate the notification to the mods just as you can should you believe you were the victim of an insult. i do hope you are able to recognize the hypocrisy of objecting to insults being posted in your direction while engaging in them yourself
 
this thread has been rife with cites describing what is going on ... at least to the extent the authorities have publicly exposed what they know
if you choose not to peruse the thread to read them then here is an excellent overview: Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR

why would we be expected to know this information and how is it germane to the topic?

Then why was it claimed that I "had no knowledge" and my "opinions" were uneducated. If they and you think so, let's see some proof of it.

i do not know this information. but it appears gibson's documentation identifies the fretboard wood to be something other than the sawn wood exceeding 8mm, which it was purported to be; (musical instrument components and veneer wood were cited as how gibson had - potentially - misclassified the sawn wood)

First you say you don't know this information then "It appears" they broke the law ???? Sounds like you pulled it out of you a** to me.

we will all be awaiting information to learn whether the federal government levies a criminal charge against gibson. at this time, with the limited factual information available, we are all engaging in speculation

Yes we will. The only court case I've been able to document is that Gibson is asking the court to return the material they took in 2009. It's my understanding that the case is due in court very soon.

in your previous post, you objected to what you perceived to be an insult. do you not believe that your expression "... when challenged you run back to mommy's basement" to be found insulting. those you insulted can activate the notification to the mods just as you can should you believe you were the victim of an insult. i do hope you are able to recognize the hypocrisy of objecting to insults being posted in your direction while engaging in them yourself

You accusing others of hypocrisy provided my laugh for the morning.
 
Then why was it claimed that I "had no knowledge" and my "opinions" were uneducated. If they and you think so, let's see some proof of it.
you asked for information which had already been stated to now be unavailable ... until the government processes its case without cloture
here is an example which indicates you make inquiries which have nothing to do with the topic at hand:
Was Juszkiewicz not invited to Obama's campaign speech tonight ???
i would still want to know what caused you to ask that question

First you say you don't know this information then "It appears" they broke the law ???? Sounds like you pulled it out of you a** to me.
as i noted, that was speculation based on the information previously cited within this thread. there were indications that gibson's documentation for imported sawn wood - which wood was likely subject to the lacey act provisions - was mischaracterized as something other than sawn wood
if that is found true and by intent, then it would appear gibson engaged in fraud to circumvent the lacey act provisions

Yes we will. The only court case I've been able to document is that Gibson is asking the court to return the material they took in 2009. It's my understanding that the case is due in court very soon.
then gibson will be provided an opportunity to prove your position correct ...
i look forward to seeing if that is the actual result

You accusing others of hypocrisy provided my laugh for the morning.
your casting of insults while also complaining about being on the receiving end of insults was factually found to have been hypocritical
 
Then why was it claimed that I "had no knowledge" and my "opinions" were uneducated. If they and you think so, let's see some proof of it.

You are dishonestly taking the comments you quoted out of context and presenting them as stand alone comments. What I said was, "The only thing that is obvious from your posts is that you have no knowledge with which to base your uneducated opinions."


First you say you don't know this information then "It appears" they broke the law ???? Sounds like you pulled it out of you a** to me.

Please, just the facts:

"The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."



The only court case I've been able to document is that Gibson is asking the court to return the material they took in 2009. It's my understanding that the case is due in court very soon.

You need to go back and read what has already been documented. The civil case was withdrawn so that a criminal case could be pursued. This has already been documented in this thread.
 
Well, the fact that even your admission shows that gibson is the victim of a fraud to start, that he has documentation, listen to the interviews the CEO of Gibson gives where he's fighting back tears because his company took every effort to work within the law, and because the last attempt to determine that they were buying illegal wood never worked out and they were never charged.

Oh and also, ever heard of the presumption of innocence... And this is the first time where ive heard of a law geared towards people that are victims of another's crime and can be found guilty.

Thing is, in the Lacey act you are still in violation of the law even I you are the victim of fraud. Can you at least admit that this is a bad precedent to set??

What next, do we start charging victims of theft? Vandalism? Rape?

I like the way you use the presumption of innocence argument after accusing Obama of ordering the raid because Gibson didn't contribute to his campaign. That was very consistent of you

(note: by "like", I mean the way rightwingers "like" taxes, and by "consistent" I meant "consistently dishonest")
 
You are dishonestly taking the comments you quoted out of context and presenting them as stand alone comments. What I said was, "The only thing that is obvious from your posts is that you have no knowledge with which to base your uneducated opinions."




Please, just the facts:

"The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."





You need to go back and read what has already been documented. The civil case was withdrawn so that a criminal case could be pursued. This has already been documented in this thread.


Sounds like a paperwork foul up to me....And one that the authorities would have to pour over to find....You know like when a prosecutor investigates for two years and can't find anything of substance to go after, so they look for a process charge.

There are questions that are open that make this look like a political persecution rather than a legitimate prosecution.

First is the question of why only Gibson? When there are other guitar makers in the USA that use the same wood, obtained from the same sources.

Second is the assertion that other guitar makers are declared demo's that have documented contributions to the Obama campaign.

Third is the fact that the head of Gibson is a republican, and donates to republicans.

Fourth is the fact that Gibson is among the ONLY non Union shops making guitars.

Fifth is the statement by Holder that it isn't a political prosecution. When ever he says something like that, it usually is indeed political. Think the voter intimidation from the New Black Panthers in Philly.

It is true we will have to see this play out, and final determinations on this would prove out, at least as much as they can.

My feeling is that nothing will come of these raids, and when Obama is voted out, the cases will disappear as strangely as they appeared without fanfare....So I guess everyone can assert anything now, because it will fade away....But to me this shows the thuggery of the Obama administration and American's should be asking themselves is this the type of monkey business they want running this country.

j-mac
 
Sounds like a paperwork foul up to me....And one that the authorities would have to pour over to find....You know like when a prosecutor investigates for two years and can't find anything of substance to go after, so they look for a process charge.

And it seems like just a short while ago that the wingnuts were arguing that Gibsons teams of lawyers wouldn't let them import wood illegally, but now it seems they're so incompetent they can't even fill out a form correctly :roll:

There are questions that are open that make this look like a political persecution rather than a legitimate prosecution.

First is the question of why only Gibson? When there are other guitar makers in the USA that use the same wood, obtained from the same sources.

Second is the assertion that other guitar makers are declared demo's that have documented contributions to the Obama campaign.

Third is the fact that the head of Gibson is a republican, and donates to republicans.

Fourth is the fact that Gibson is among the ONLY non Union shops making guitars.

Fifth is the statement by Holder that it isn't a political prosecution. When ever he says something like that, it usually is indeed political. Think the voter intimidation from the New Black Panthers in Philly.

It is true we will have to see this play out, and final determinations on this would prove out, at least as much as they can.

My feeling is that nothing will come of these raids, and when Obama is voted out, the cases will disappear as strangely as they appeared without fanfare....So I guess everyone can assert anything now, because it will fade away....But to me this shows the thuggery of the Obama administration and American's should be asking themselves is this the type of monkey business they want running this country.

j-mac

So much for the presumption of innocence argument :lol:
 
And it seems like just a short while ago that the wingnuts were arguing that Gibsons teams of lawyers wouldn't let them import wood illegally, but now it seems they're so incompetent they can't even fill out a form correctly :roll:

Clerical mistakes happen. Does that normally lead to criminal prosecution? Hardly. Now you want to make out Gibson guitars as incompetent? I wonder if that has to do with my pointing out that they donate to repubs? or if you are just distracting from your own shortcomings in argument?

So much for the presumption of innocence argument

This presumption is afforded to the accused, not the accuser.


j-mac
 
Clerical mistakes happen. Does that normally lead to criminal prosecution? Hardly. Now you want to make out Gibson guitars as incompetent? I wonder if that has to do with my pointing out that they donate to repubs? or if you are just distracting from your own shortcomings in argument?

So the emails that Gibson sent out were "clerical errors"? :lamo:



This presumption is afforded to the accused, not the accuser.


j-mac

You mean the presumption you gave to Obama? :roll:
 
So the emails that Gibson sent out were "clerical errors"? :lamo:





You mean the presumption you gave to Obama? :roll:


So it is political payback....Thanks for admitting that. I just love when liberal progressives reveal their true thug selves.


j-mac
 
This is why you have been unable to find a docket #:

"Nicholas Chavez, a New Mexico-based Fish and Wildlife Service agent, said investigators also presented a criminal case to the Justice Department after the 2009 raid. While no charges have yet to be filed, federal prosecutors in Nashville recently asked a judge to temporarily suspend the civil case while a criminal investigation is pursued."
Gibson Guitar chief denies wrongdoing after raids | The Tennessean | tennessean.com

To sum up then: There's no civil case - as it's (assumed to be) suspended. And there's no criminal case for the 2009 raid which was 3 years ago.

That's what I've been saying all along. :coffeepap:
 
So it is political payback....Thanks for admitting that. I just love when liberal progressives reveal their true thug selves.


j-mac

ANd thanks for demonstrating an ability to completely misconstrue what was said. I just love when rightwingers reveal their inability to comprehend their own hypocrisy
 
So the emails that Gibson sent out were "clerical errors"? :lamo:





You mean the presumption you gave to Obama? :roll:

this final expression is pure reich wing/teabagger gold:
... monkey business they want running this country
 
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