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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, then you seem to not understand the industry...




    j-mac
    You have proven, over and over, that you do not understand the issues being discussed. You don't even understand that we're discussing a US law known as The Lacey Act
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    For the benefit of you and others that haven't kept up:

    ""The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

    Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

    "Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

    Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR

    Here is the language used in the emails.


    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Gibson will have to overcome the following:

    The filing also referred to internal Gibson e-mails: "[A] Gibson employee…wrote that '[t]he true Ebony species preferred by Gibson Musical Instruments is found only in Madagascar (Diospryos perrieri). This is a slow-growing tree species with very little conservation protection and supplies are considered to be highly threatened in its native environment due to over exploitation.' In fact, [he] spent two and a half weeks in Madagascar this June [2008],' writing on his return, 'I represented our company along with two other guitar manufacturers ... All legal timber and wood exports are prohibited because of wide spread corruption and theft of valuable woods like rosewood and ebony.'"

    "On February 25, 2009, in a reference to the potential long term solution, [he] wrote…that the company Maderas Barber ‘has been in the business a long time and may be able to help begin some legitimate harvests. Mr. [Roger] Thunam on the other hand should now be able to supply Nagel with all the rosewood and ebony for the grey market.'"

    DOJ Says Gibson Lacks Legal Standing to Claim Ownership of Ebony : Home Furnishings Business

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    You have no argument from me. That why I have said repeatedly that the law should be abolished and a new law drafted in the same spirit as Lacey but with a greater defined responsibilities, guidelines and procedures.
    Agreed. It is politically tough loosening any of the eco-laws though.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, I am keeping up just fine Cat, or was that jab meant to encourage something you could report? Look, I am aware that the Government case includes some form of tariff code that they say was wrong because it was off by one number, a clear clerical error.

    This in no way was the original reason for the raid.
    Of course not, as I just quoted,

    "The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

    Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

    "Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, I am keeping up just fine Cat, or was that jab meant to encourage something you could report? Look, I am aware that the Government case includes some form of tariff code that they say was wrong because it was off by one number, a clear clerical error.

    This in no way was the original reason for the raid. Reports cited at the time that government officials believed Gibson to be in violation of Indian laws that require these veneers to be "finished" by Indian workers, and even though the Indian government states on more than one occasion that the product was legal, Holders DoJ, along with the Enviro-nuts in control of fish and wildlife, overstepped here. Now that their hand is caught in the cookie jar of heavy handed intimidation that Himmler would be proud of, they, and others are relying on obfuscation, disinformation, and dissembling to misdirect their malfeasance

    And you defend it with more of the same...Are you proud?


    j-mac
    No, you obviously are not keeping up since you are still operating under the delusion that Gibson is being investigated for a violation of Indian law when you've been told several times that they are being investigated for a violation of the Lacey Act, which is a US law

    And you keep posting the idiocy that we're talking about Indian law...Are you proud?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    The EIA is a private organization. Like the Sierra Club. Additionally, it is my understanding from earlier posts that there was not a "ban" on the export of these woods at the time, but that Madagascar imposed the ban after it got caught in cahoots with a crime syndicate over there allowing the harvesting of timber from protected land. That's what Wikipedia says, and its what I was told by my exporter in Madagascar. In fact, there are still recriminations going on in Madagascar over who got caught doing what.

    The issue is due process. Can you show us where four years is "due process" ? Just saying so is not convincing.
    Can you show where four years in such a case is NOT "due process". Just saying it's not is not convincing
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    And do we actually expect the government would claim that Gibson DIDN'T illegally import it and that both raids were a mistake? I mean common...
    If they've got the proof as they claim that Gibson "knowingly imported tainted wood", what's taking 4 years to prosecute in a court? If it's as cut and dry as Catwaba claims, this is a slam dunk.


    Problem is... the bull**** coming from the government doesn't match the actions. I'd like to see it go to court so we can find out the facts.
    I agree. And the eco-police can be exceedingly over-bearing and over-reaching. To be candid, the vast majority of USF&W folks that I work with are great. Very professional. BUT ... when one wants to be a dick, there is nothing to restrain them. There is so much potential for subjective interpretations with all of this that sometimes your strategy is just "don't piss them off".

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    And do we actually expect the government would claim that Gibson DIDN'T illegally import it and that both raids were a mistake? I mean common...
    If they've got the proof as they claim that Gibson "knowingly imported tainted wood", what's taking 4 years to prosecute in a court? If it's as cut and dry as Catwaba claims, this is a slam dunk.


    Problem is... the bull**** coming from the government doesn't match the actions. I'd like to see it go to court so we can find out the facts.
    No, the bull**** is coming from you. An example would be your bull**** claim that the govt has said it has proof that Gibson "knowingly imported tainted wood"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Can you show where four years in such a case is NOT "due process". Just saying it's not is not convincing
    Again. That is to prove a negative. Four years without being charged, or a hearing so that there can be a finding, is absurd to me as an American. I know of no precedent for such. It is my belief that this type of crap only exists in the world of eco law.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Again. That is to prove a negative. Four years without being charged, or a hearing so that there can be a finding, is absurd to me as an American. I know of no precedent for such. It is my belief that this type of crap only exists in the world of eco law.
    I'll add "not understanding what a negative is" to the List of Dishonest Arguments that have been used in this thread

    Hint: What is "disturbing to you" does not mean it is not "due process"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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