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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #41
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Not saying you are wrong, but can you provide some specific examples, so that a comparison can be made?
    Sure. This one is a few years old, but I've been reading a lot of books on overcriminalization and this is one that burned itself into my brain:

    Case Studies

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    This might hold some water if there was actual charges being levied....No charges so far have been made. Just Holder's thugs raiding a legit business at gunpoint, and taking what they want.
    I think you're splitting hairs -- a search-and-seizure like this is an obvious prelude to either a prosecution or a settlement. The Feds wouldn't be going after Gibson so publicly unless they meant to do bad things to them, given the opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No doubt about that. But it takes an executive willing to use that power. Why now?
    You seem to be operating under the assumption that the President runs the Department of Justice. He certainly has authority over the DoJ, but he doesn't spend any portion of his day looking over the shoulders of the US Attorneys employed there -- that's the Attorney General's job. Either this was started by an ambitious US Attorney, or the Attorney General felt like it, but I rate the potential that Obama directed this at "low."

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And why only one maker of guitars? Surely, makers like Fender use the same ebony.
    Because they want to see how far they can get on this one before they start chasing after other people or companies for related offenses. This is a test case.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Why not? In this case Gibson guitars is the company enduring this crap, whether or not the tactic, or policy has been in place, it is the Obama administration that is using it now.
    Because this is a problem that goes way beyond any President. It has to do with how the American public perceives justice and, again, how prosecutors are in turn perceived.

    Generally speaking, the American people equate prison sentences and fines with justice -- the higher the sentence or the larger the fine, the greater the measure of justice achieved. Obviously, not everybody looks at it that way, and even those who do can from time to time look at a hefty sentence or fine and go, "Whoah, that's too much." Regardless, that general observation holds true in most cases.

    The proof of that is to be found in how our politicians from coast to coast talk about crime and punishment -- "tough on crime" is a desirable stamp to claim for oneself, and always translates to an expansion of the number of criminal offenses, longer sentences, mandatory minimums, and ultimately higher arrest and prosecution rates. To resist any of these in any way, or to fail to promote their expansion in some way, is to run the risk of being branded "soft on crime."

    The public as a whole wants more ways for the government to criminalize and arrest people, and wants convicts to suffer stiffer penalties -- and so our politicians duel with each other in an endless tennis match of more-is-better.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  2. #42
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Only if your geetar was made by a non-union geetar manufacturer.
    Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

    I know years ago the steel workers union showed up at Gibson for a shakedown. The man in charge of Gibson - I forget his name - asked what they wanted with his shop. They said, "You make steel guitars." He said, "Yeah, but we don't make them out of steel." They laughed and said it didn't matter. In the end, they didn't unionize Gibson.

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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not sure of the purpose of your thread. Are you pro-illegal purchases??
    The illegality you speak of has yet to be proven, or even charged. The feds just busted in - again - took some valuable material, and has yet to return it. The loss of material alone is worth a million dollars to Gibson, not counting the loss in sales of products that could be made from the confiscated material.

    Screw that. The gov needs to file charges or return the stuff.

  4. #44
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Sure. This one is a few years old, but I've been reading a lot of books on overcriminalization and this is one that burned itself into my brain:

    Case Studies



    I think you're splitting hairs -- a search-and-seizure like this is an obvious prelude to either a prosecution or a settlement. The Feds wouldn't be going after Gibson so publicly unless they meant to do bad things to them, given the opportunity.



    You seem to be operating under the assumption that the President runs the Department of Justice. He certainly has authority over the DoJ, but he doesn't spend any portion of his day looking over the shoulders of the US Attorneys employed there -- that's the Attorney General's job. Either this was started by an ambitious US Attorney, or the Attorney General felt like it, but I rate the potential that Obama directed this at "low."



    Because they want to see how far they can get on this one before they start chasing after other people or companies for related offenses. This is a test case.



    Because this is a problem that goes way beyond any President. It has to do with how the American public perceives justice and, again, how prosecutors are in turn perceived.

    Generally speaking, the American people equate prison sentences and fines with justice -- the higher the sentence or the larger the fine, the greater the measure of justice achieved. Obviously, not everybody looks at it that way, and even those who do can from time to time look at a hefty sentence or fine and go, "Whoah, that's too much." Regardless, that general observation holds true in most cases.

    The proof of that is to be found in how our politicians from coast to coast talk about crime and punishment -- "tough on crime" is a desirable stamp to claim for oneself, and always translates to an expansion of the number of criminal offenses, longer sentences, mandatory minimums, and ultimately higher arrest and prosecution rates. To resist any of these in any way, or to fail to promote their expansion in some way, is to run the risk of being branded "soft on crime."

    The public as a whole wants more ways for the government to criminalize and arrest people, and wants convicts to suffer stiffer penalties -- and so our politicians duel with each other in an endless tennis match of more-is-better.
    Thanks for the case Dan. I guess what I am saying is in this 'over reach', using the office, in this case US Attorney, or USAG, or heck maybe even President, (I still don't think it is impossible that Obama couldn't pick up a phone and tell Holder to lean on them) And no one willing, or courageous enough to investigate into the why's, then we are on a slippery slope to losing this country.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  5. #45
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    With all the problems this country currently has you'd think this administration would have better things to do but then they are the cause of many of the problems so I'm not that surprised. What really stands out here is that the goverment actually suggested to Gibson that if they took there fingerboard work overseas that the problem would go away. Huh? and you wonder why we have the unemployment where it is. These clowns are actually sending more jobs overseas than they are helping create here. Another point here is that Gibson is a non-union shop with a CEO that has contributed to Republican campaigns while the competion (Fendor, a union shop) has not been bothered. So this is clearly politically motivated. If Obama gets another 4 years I would be concerned for business's that are non-union & have CEO's that lean Republican, we could be looking at a mass exodus of jobs if Obamas gestapo teams are sent out to take these companies down (amoung many other of his policies that export jobs).
    Last edited by Iron Yank; 09-03-11 at 11:11 AM.

  6. #46
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Because this is a problem that goes way beyond any President. It has to do with how the American public perceives justice and, again, how prosecutors are in turn perceived.

    Generally speaking, the American people equate prison sentences and fines with justice -- the higher the sentence or the larger the fine, the greater the measure of justice achieved. Obviously, not everybody looks at it that way, and even those who do can from time to time look at a hefty sentence or fine and go, "Whoah, that's too much." Regardless, that general observation holds true in most cases.

    The proof of that is to be found in how our politicians from coast to coast talk about crime and punishment -- "tough on crime" is a desirable stamp to claim for oneself, and always translates to an expansion of the number of criminal offenses, longer sentences, mandatory minimums, and ultimately higher arrest and prosecution rates. To resist any of these in any way, or to fail to promote their expansion in some way, is to run the risk of being branded "soft on crime."

    The public as a whole wants more ways for the government to criminalize and arrest people, and wants convicts to suffer stiffer penalties -- and so our politicians duel with each other in an endless tennis match of more-is-better.
    Additional proof of what you say can be found by looking at our incarceration rate, which is the highest in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Thanks for the case Dan. I guess what I am saying is in this 'over reach', using the office, in this case US Attorney, or USAG, or heck maybe even President, (I still don't think it is impossible that Obama couldn't pick up a phone and tell Holder to lean on them) And no one willing, or courageous enough to investigate into the why's, then we are on a slippery slope to losing this country.

    j-mac
    If you have ANY evidence of "over-reach", please feel free to post it.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #47
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Additional proof of what you say can be found by looking at our incarceration rate, which is the highest in the world.



    If you have ANY evidence of "over-reach", please feel free to post it.
    They showed up at Gibson's plant with a heavily armed SWAT team.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    They showed up at Gibson's plant with a heavily armed SWAT team.
    So what? I asked about "over-reach" not "over-reaction".
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    So what? I asked about "over-reach" not "over-reaction".
    Gibson had all the necessary documentation to prove they were in legal possession of the material. The government confiscated the material, anyway and have yet to return it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Gibson had all the necessary documentation to prove they were in legal possession of the material. The government confiscated the material, anyway and have yet to return it.
    It's the law. When the police arrest someone, they don't let them go just because they claim they have the right paperwork.

    However, I will say that confiscation laws (and there are plenty of them) are often unfair, but we wouldn't have them if it weren't for the rightwingers who pushed for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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