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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #481
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    i will accept that no, you have nothing
    Did you even read J-Mac's above post and text ?

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    We may be in some agreement here. Unfortunately, the above standard places an onus on the importer to verify and attest to that which it cannot attest. If there is government corruption in another country during the chain of possession, it is impractical beyond reason to punish the importer.

    As noted by another who said that "plants and animals have more rights than people", there is merit to this argument. The initial public outcry of the late 60's and early 70's over the harvesting of such as rhino horns and elephant ivory led to the creation of both our own endangered species list, and the empowerment of our USF&W with extraordinary reach, but also the creation of CITES, based out of Switzerland, and now with over 120 member countries. CITES is like a worldwide Endangered and Threatened Species Act. It has no enforcement authority, except to make recommendations to its member countries. Many of those member countries enforce the CITES recommendations in complete agreement. Others not so much. Others are so poor and corrupt it can be as a joke.

    The animal and plant police are probably the closest thing we have to a Gestapo in the US. Its the same over-reach that we read about almost daily where American citizens lose their livelihood by the thousands because of some useless minnow.

    The Lacey Act is one huge over-reach, in that it enables the Federal Government with all manner of excessive power without what most would view as due process. Gibson Guitar is a most perfect example.

    You have no argument from me. That why I have said repeatedly that the law should be abolished and a new law drafted in the same spirit as Lacey but with a greater defined responsibilities, guidelines and procedures.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Who's law? As far as I know, this is about the finger board blanks not being finished by Indian workers...So now we enforce Indian law?


    j-mac
    For the benefit of you and others that haven't kept up:

    ""The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

    Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

    "Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

    Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    No. I don't believe anyone has said that seizure is uncommon. But to go four years without being charged, or without getting your wood back, is one of the main issues here.
    Sometimes criminal investigations take years. Again, nothing out of the norm.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    For the benefit of you and others that haven't kept up:

    ""The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

    Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

    "Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

    Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR

    Oh, I am keeping up just fine Cat, or was that jab meant to encourage something you could report? Look, I am aware that the Government case includes some form of tariff code that they say was wrong because it was off by one number, a clear clerical error.

    This in no way was the original reason for the raid. Reports cited at the time that government officials believed Gibson to be in violation of Indian laws that require these veneers to be "finished" by Indian workers, and even though the Indian government states on more than one occasion that the product was legal, Holders DoJ, along with the Enviro-nuts in control of fish and wildlife, overstepped here. Now that their hand is caught in the cookie jar of heavy handed intimidation that Himmler would be proud of, they, and others are relying on obfuscation, disinformation, and dissembling to misdirect their malfeasance

    And you defend it with more of the same...Are you proud?


    j-mac
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    For the benefit of you and others that haven't kept up:

    ""The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

    Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

    "Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

    Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
    The EIA is a private organization. Like the Sierra Club. Additionally, it is my understanding from earlier posts that there was not a "ban" on the export of these woods at the time, but that Madagascar imposed the ban after it got caught in cahoots with a crime syndicate over there allowing the harvesting of timber from protected land. That's what Wikipedia says, and its what I was told by my exporter in Madagascar. In fact, there are still recriminations going on in Madagascar over who got caught doing what.

    The issue is due process. Can you show us where four years is "due process" ? Just saying so is not convincing.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 05-03-12 at 03:39 PM.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    That would seem incorrect. Many do use the same kind of wood. And trust me that Madagascar rosewood comes from Madagascar. The issue with that particular wood at this time was that it was cut from protected forests in Madagascar, and not from unrestricted forests. Its more abundant in the former, a practice with endangered wood all over.

    We do not know that others have, or have not, gotten suspect shipments. My experience would tell me that a lot of the wood out there is dirty, if any of it is.
    And your argument would seem disingenously dishonest because the original question did not only ask about the "same types of wood". It also asked about the sources

    But you knew that already, didn't you?
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    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Who's law? As far as I know, this is about the finger board blanks not being finished by Indian workers...So now we enforce Indian law?


    j-mac
    Umm, after all this discussion, you *still* don't realize that we're talking about the Lacey Act, which is US law?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    No. I don't believe anyone has said that seizure is uncommon. But to go four years without being charged, or without getting your wood back, is one of the main issues here.
    No, the main issues are the dishonest claims by Ockham that Gibson was singled out, that the 6th Amend has been violated, and that it's Obamas' doing
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    The EIA is a private organization. Like the Sierra Club.

    The issue is due process. Can you show us where four years is "due process" ? Just saying so is not convincing.
    And do we actually expect the government would claim that Gibson DIDN'T illegally import it and that both raids were a mistake? I mean common...
    If they've got the proof as they claim that Gibson "knowingly imported tainted wood", what's taking 4 years to prosecute in a court? If it's as cut and dry as Catwaba claims, this is a slam dunk.


    Problem is... the bull**** coming from the government doesn't match the actions. I'd like to see it go to court so we can find out the facts.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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