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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I assume that they use the same types of woods, from largely the same sources...Is that wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
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    That would seem incorrect. Many do use the same kind of wood. And trust me that Madagascar rosewood comes from Madagascar. The issue with that particular wood at this time was that it was cut from protected forests in Madagascar, and not from unrestricted forests. Its more abundant in the former, a practice with endangered wood all over.

    We do not know that others have, or have not, gotten suspect shipments. My experience would tell me that a lot of the wood out there is dirty, if any of it is.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Umm, there is evidence that Gibson violated the law, and no evidence that any other guitar manufaturer violated the LA, so how is it "singling out" to go after the ONLY corp that evidence shows may have violated the law?
    Who's law? As far as I know, this is about the finger board blanks not being finished by Indian workers...So now we enforce Indian law?


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And? Is search and seizure unusual in a criminal investigation?
    No. I don't believe anyone has said that seizure is uncommon. But to go four years without being charged, or without getting your wood back, is one of the main issues here.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Indeed, you cannot grasp my argument, even after posting it multiple times. I can lead the horse to water but cannot make him think.

    Your claims that Gibson was not singled out, wrong. You're inability to grasp basic concepts of the argument - wasted. You're knowledge about what the government's process is - none and no better than mine. Sorry you're so lost... but there's nothing more I can help you with. (BTW - feel free to get in the last word, you know, to garner those fictional "forum" points you tally up.)
    You have not proven that Gibson was singled out. I have shown where the law was applied in various instances; that is my position.

    I have outlined the government's procedure, which I believe does not give all parties a chance to adequately defend themselves.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I assume that they use the same types of woods, from largely the same sources...Is that wrong?

    j-mac
    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Who's law? As far as I know, this is about the finger board blanks not being finished by Indian workers...So now we enforce Indian law?


    j-mac
    That is one of the issues. And it illustrates one of the huge problems with such as the Lacey Act. If there was a process in another country, having anything to do with the flora and fauna, that was illegal in that country ............ then you may have your product confiscated here.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    That would seem incorrect. Many do use the same kind of wood. And trust me that Madagascar rosewood comes from Madagascar. The issue with that particular wood at this time was that it was cut from protected forests in Madagascar, and not from unrestricted forests. Its more abundant in the former, a practice with endangered wood all over.

    We do not know that others have, or have not, gotten suspect shipments. My experience would tell me that a lot of the wood out there is dirty, if any of it is.
    then give us your proof that other manufacturers are violating the lacey act
    all you are telling us is your speculation
    the government needs a valid basis to conduct a raid on a lacey act violator
    you have offered no such basis
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes

    There has been no evidence posted to support your assumption and "largely the same sources" is not the same as "the same sources"
    Well, then you seem to not understand the industry...

    It's as sweet a sound as you can imagine. A $10,000 guitar expertly crafted by the hands of Dave Berkowitz, a master luthier in Washington, D.C.
    But Berkowitz's guitars include fretboards and bridges made from Indian rosewood and ebony, which the U.S. Fish and Wildlife service declared to be illegal to import in its actions against Gibson Guitar back in August. Now, every time Berkowitz uses that wood to build his immaculate instruments, he is potentially breaking the law.
    "I use the exact same ebony and rosewood fingerboards that were confiscated in August from Gibson," Berkowitz told Fox News.
    Does that mean he is "engaging in illegal business practices?"
    "Well, technically speaking, yes, because they have declared the materials I'm using illegal," he said.
    But whether the Indian rosewood and ebony that Berkowitz and Gibson -- and so many other guitar makers -- use is really illegal depends on who is asked.
    According to the Indian government, fingerboard "blanks" -- the wood that will eventually become a guitar's fretboard -- are legal to export.
    "Fingerboard is a finished product and not wood in primary form," Vinod Srivastava, India's deputy director-general of foreign trade, stipulated in a letter dated Sept. 16. "The foreign trade policy of the government of India allows free export of such finished products of wood."
    The U.S. government disagrees. In its affidavit to search Gibson, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service considers fingerboard blanks to be raw materials, not finished product -- illegal to export from India and, therefore, illegal to import into the United States.
    What's more, according to the complaint, the Gibson wood was imported with an incorrect tariff code, which was off by one digit from the correct code. Luthiers Mercantile International, the company that imports the wood for Gibson, claims that was a simple clerical error. The difference in the codes refers to the thickness of the wood -- more than or less than six millimeters in thickness.


    Read more: After Gibson Raid, Other Guitar Makers at Risk of Breaking Law | Fox News

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Then post the other guitar company's who were raided. It's real simple...
    Why is this relevant in application to the Lacey Act, other businesses were "targeted". The Lacey Act is not exclusive to guitar manufacturers.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    then give us your proof that other manufacturers are violating the lacey act
    all you are telling us is your speculation
    the government needs a valid basis to conduct a raid on a lacey act violator
    you have offered no such basis
    Clearly I have not proof !! If I did, I believe that I would be in violation of the law !! I never claimed "proof". What I did claim was years of experience in dealing with the import and export of CITES listed flora and fauna. And Madagascar. Part of Gibson's problem was Madagascar Rosewood, a CITES Appendix III species, and government corruption over there. These topics I'm a friggin genius in

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Clearly I have not proof !! If I did, I believe that I would be in violation of the law !! I never claimed "proof". What I did claim was years of experience in dealing with the import and export of CITES listed flora and fauna. And Madagascar. Part of Gibson's problem was Madagascar Rosewood, a CITES Appendix III species, and government corruption over there. These topics I'm a friggin genius in
    i will accept that no, you have nothing
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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