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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #421
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    ......... The standard is as follows: "Forfeiture. The Lacey Act’s civil forfeiture provisions are enforced on a strict liability basis. If illegal timber or a product made from illegal timber (and/or illegal wildlife or fish) is brought into the U.S., that timber or timber product may be seized whether or not the person from whom it is seized knew of the illegal nature of the product. Nonetheless, the government must still show that a plant, plant product, or wildlife has been imported or received in violation of a State or foreign law or regulation." Where the government can or has proved their burden is unknown at this point.....
    We may be in some agreement here. Unfortunately, the above standard places an onus on the importer to verify and attest to that which it cannot attest. If there is government corruption in another country during the chain of possession, it is impractical beyond reason to punish the importer.

    As noted by another who said that "plants and animals have more rights than people", there is merit to this argument. The initial public outcry of the late 60's and early 70's over the harvesting of such as rhino horns and elephant ivory led to the creation of both our own endangered species list, and the empowerment of our USF&W with extraordinary reach, but also the creation of CITES, based out of Switzerland, and now with over 120 member countries. CITES is like a worldwide Endangered and Threatened Species Act. It has no enforcement authority, except to make recommendations to its member countries. Many of those member countries enforce the CITES recommendations in complete agreement. Others not so much. Others are so poor and corrupt it can be as a joke.

    The animal and plant police are probably the closest thing we have to a Gestapo in the US. Its the same over-reach that we read about almost daily where American citizens lose their livelihood by the thousands because of some useless minnow.

    The Lacey Act is one huge over-reach, in that it enables the Federal Government with all manner of excessive power without what most would view as due process. Gibson Guitar is a most perfect example.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The Presidency and who held office is irrelevant to the context and subject matter, as you well know.
    Some have been trying to say this investigation is due to Obama and his justice department. So that is the reason I made it clear the law was amended by Congress in June 2008 to include plants, including timber, paper and other forest products.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    No more responses to your attempts to change the subject until you post a link...
    there is no link to post
    and that is because the federal agents have found no basis to pursue another manufacturer for violation of the lacey act

    but prove me wrong
    point to another manufacturer and its violation(s) of said act
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and there is nothing to suggest that gibson is the only one thus targeted because it is now found to be the only manufacturer violating the lacey act
    It has not been found to have violated the Lacey Act.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    It has not been found to have violated the Lacey Act.
    it is the only one believed to be in violation of the lacey act, hence the federal raids to which you have objected
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  6. #426
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    there is no link to post
    Therefore, you lose the argument.

    Thanks.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    it is the only one believed to be in violation of the lacey act, hence the federal raids to which you have objected
    That is one huge assumption on your part. Where do we find the conclusion by the Feds as to "believe".? That is also not the standard. The standard is to be charged, and with due process. Can you show us the "due process" of four years without being charged ?

    Trust me. I know one Helluva lot more about this process than you. As I said earlier, they have not been charged because our Fed cannot make the case to pin this specific wood on illegal origins. If you would read, I noted some of the differences between CITES Appendix I, II, and III. Much of this wood is Appendix III, and the claim to its illegality is not that it was above or in excess of allowable export quota, but rather that it was illegally harvested from protected land in its country of origin.

    That is incredably difficult to prove after the wood has been processed through a third country. Cause it looks just the same as legally harvested wood.

    When something is listed as CITES Appendix I or II, each increment of it is counted, with documentation every step of the way. The government over-reached trying to bust Gibson on a problem that is for the country of origin to stop.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 05-03-12 at 01:53 PM.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    It's up to the govt to prove its case, not vice versa, or have you forgotten that?

    Sent from my blasted phone.
    And it's up to Ockham to prove his case, or have you forgotten *that*?
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Some have been trying to say this investigation is due to Obama and his justice department. So that is the reason I made it clear the law was amended by Congress in June 2008 to include plants, including timber, paper and other forest products.

    Yes, and Nancy Pelosi (D) was the speaker of the house, with demo control of congress, and the Senate had demo operational control...So, your point? Or were you trying to say that in hopes that people wouldn't remember who had control of congress?


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    That is one huge assumption on your part. Where do we find the conclusion by the Feds as to "believe".? That is also not the standard. The standard is to be charged, and with due process. Can you show us the "due process" of four years without being charged ?

    Trust me. I know one Helluva lot more about this process than you. As I said earlier, they have not been charged because our Fed cannot make the case to pin this specific wood on illegal origins. If you would read, I noted some of the differences between CITES Appendix I, II, and III. Much of this wood is Appendix III, and the claim to its illegality is not that it was above or in excess of allowable export quota, but rather that it was illegally harvested from protected land in its country of origin.

    That is incredably difficult to prove after the wood has been processed through a third country. Cause it looks just the same as legally harvested wood.

    When something is listed as CITES Appendix I or II, each increment of it is counted, with documentation every step of the way. The government over-reached trying to bust Gibson on a problem that is for the country of origin to stop.
    what we know, is that there have been no other manufacturers raided because the government has reason to believe they have violated the lacey act
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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