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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #401
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Ok so you do not know what you are taking about, yet, you wish for the Lacey Act to stay in force because some other guy (Gibson CEO ) wants the law to stay intact.
    You don't know what the government requires for action either... therefore you don't know what you're talking about.

    So are you being purposefully obtuse? Probably... for what purpose? Dunno... but you're starting to bore me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    I do not.
    Yet, you continue to put the burden on Gibson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    You stated that, [you] do not know what is required for the government to take action". You are clear in your bias and outrage, but, not your factual analysis.
    I'm certainly biased against unreasonable actions taken by a government which has yielded no charges and a loss of millions of dollars, with no day in court. Definitely biased against that, you caught me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Enforcement of the Lacey Act itself is not clear either , indeed, "How enforcement resources will be allocated is yet to be determined; in general, enforcement priorities and plans are not discussed in detail. In most enforcement work, if information is developed indicating a high likelihood of violations of a particular type, enforcement resources will likely focus on those types of activities".
    So you're citing yet more government inadequacies. I quite agree.


    I seem to have missed the other guitar companies who have been raided since 2008. And since there were none (I'll just skip the witty reparte of the next few posts if you don't mind), I'm sure you'll admit that Gibson has been singled out.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  2. #402
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You don't know what the government requires for action either... therefore you don't know what you're talking about.

    So are you being purposefully obtuse? Probably... for what purpose? Dunno... but you're starting to bore me.


    Yet, you continue to put the burden on Gibson.

    I'm certainly biased against unreasonable actions taken by a government which has yielded no charges and a loss of millions of dollars, with no day in court. Definitely biased against that, you caught me.


    So you're citing yet more government inadequacies. I quite agree.


    I seem to have missed the other guitar companies who have been raided since 2008. And since there were none (I'll just skip the witty reparte of the next few posts if you don't mind), I'm sure you'll admit that Gibson has been singled out.

    It seems to me that you simply want to argue with someone additionally, ascribe behaviors and position to me that are simply not true.

    My position is that the procedural aspect of the law needs to be more direct so all parties have a fair opportunity to defend their case. According to the the "Act" , "any plant or plant product imported in violation of the import declaration requirements may be subject to forfeiture." That seems to be what occurred here.


    The standard is as follows: "Forfeiture. The Lacey Acts civil forfeiture provisions are enforced on a strict liability basis. If illegal timber or a product made from illegal timber (and/or illegal wildlife or fish) is brought into the U.S., that timber or timber product may be seized whether or not the person from whom it is seized knew of the illegal nature of the product. Nonetheless, the government must still show that a plant, plant product, or wildlife has been imported or received in violation of a State or foreign law or regulation." Where the government can or has proved their burden is unknown at this point.

    As far as certification, the Forest Stewardship Council did certify the wood, but, according to the Act, "Although most certification systems for forest products include legality of harvest among their criteria, these are voluntary, private sector systems, the accuracy of which cannot be readily determined by the government. Nevertheless, such certification systems may provide information useful to manufacturers and importers in their efforts to exercise due diligence regarding sources and species of timber."


    Gibson and the Lacey both need to revise their respective internal procedures.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    It seems to me that you simply want to argue with someone additionally, ascribe behaviors and position to me that are simply not true.
    I'm stating I want to see Gibson get their day in court, and the government to produce charges or, drop it and stop trying to intimidate company's by using the law as a baseball bat.

    It's real simple. Either you get it or you don't. And you don't.



    Not my problem.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm stating I want to see Gibson get their day in court, and the government to produce charges or, drop it and stop trying to intimidate company's by using the law as a baseball bat.

    It's real simple. Either you get it or you don't. And you don't.



    Not my problem.

    Indeed, your problem is reading comprehension. I have stated this position multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post

    My position is that the procedural aspect of the law needs to be more direct so all parties have a fair opportunity to defend their case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    time limitations for which all are given the opportunity to present their case.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm stating I want to see Gibson get their day in court, and the government to produce charges or, drop it and stop trying to intimidate company's by using the law as a baseball bat.

    It's real simple. Either you get it or you don't. And you don't.



    Not my problem.
    The bottom line seems to be that trees now have more rights than American citizens.

  6. #406
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Indeed, your problem is reading comprehension. I have stated this position multiple times.
    Indeed, you cannot grasp my argument, even after posting it multiple times. I can lead the horse to water but cannot make him think.

    Your claims that Gibson was not singled out, wrong. You're inability to grasp basic concepts of the argument - wasted. You're knowledge about what the government's process is - none and no better than mine. Sorry you're so lost... but there's nothing more I can help you with. (BTW - feel free to get in the last word, you know, to garner those fictional "forum" points you tally up.)
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #407
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The bottom line seems to be that trees now have more rights than American citizens.
    "Crucify them" I believe is the mantra of the current government.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  8. #408
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Indeed, you cannot grasp my argument, even after posting it multiple times. I can lead the horse to water but cannot make him think.

    Your claims that Gibson was not singled out, wrong. You're inability to grasp basic concepts of the argument - wasted. You're knowledge about what the government's process is - none and no better than mine. Sorry you're so lost... but there's nothing more I can help you with. (BTW - feel free to get in the last word, you know, to garner those fictional "forum" points you tally up.)
    and your "proof" that gibson was singled out for enforcement action consists of what?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  9. #409
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and your "proof" that gibson was singled out for enforcement action consists of what?
    Strawman... I'm not claiming proof.


    I'm not going to retype it - read the following link:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1060452199
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  10. #410
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Strawman... I'm not claiming proof.


    I'm not going to retype it - read the following link:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1060452199
    [emphasis added by bubba as the forum member apparently cannot recall what he has posted]

    then what we find is that there is no proof that gibson was singled out

    yet you post
    ... Your claims that Gibson was not singled out, wrong. Y ...
    do you even understand what it is you are posting?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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