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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #381
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    if it were not about illegal logging, there would be nothing to investigate
    so, of course it is about illegal logging. and whether gibson is a party to it - knowingly
    So you know this is about illegal logging? Gibson doesn't log... they're a purchaser.


    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    there has been no abuse of governmental authority

    and thus no need for a speedy trial, since no one has been arrested
    You may be okay with the government issuing a warrant, taking all your stuff, then sitting on it indefinitely. I'm just not.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but tell me what i got wrong; i'm listening
    You haven't gotten anything right. Gibson didn't do the illegal logging. Gibson factories were raided and millions of dollars of materials taken as "evidence" with no charges, twice. The government has issued no additional warrants nor arrests, therefore since there is a presupposition of charges being brought (ie., the warrant, the raid), the 6th amendment has been violated.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  2. #382
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    So you know this is about illegal logging? Gibson doesn't log... they're a purchaser.
    And that may be beside the point if they knew that the wood was illegally farmed. For example, you can be put in prison for fencing stolen property even if you didn't steal it yourself.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    And that may be beside the point if they knew that the wood was illegally farmed. For example, you can be put in prison for fencing stolen property even if you didn't steal it yourself.
    So do you think Gibson officials should be thrown in the clink?

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  4. #384
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    if it were not about illegal logging, there would be nothing to investigate
    so, of course it is about illegal logging. and whether gibson is a party to it - knowingly

    there has been no abuse of governmental authority

    and thus no need for a speedy trial, since no one has been arrested


    but tell me what i got wrong; i'm listening

    As far as I am aware the wood in question was cleared by India for export to Gibson.

    The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department's interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.

    Gibson Press Release
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  5. #385
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    And that may be beside the point if they knew that the wood was illegally farmed.
    Still irrelevant since Gibson is a purchaser and has no ability to verify or validate the country of origins information on where the wood came from, how it was logged, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    For example, you can be put in prison for fencing stolen property even if you didn't steal it yourself.
    "Fencing stolen property" means the person knew it was stolen... which is the problem; Gibson has not been shown to know this wood was illegally logged, fraudulently documented, etc. People do not go into prison when they buy property from Tiffany's, purchased in good faith, only to find out it was stolen. I'm sure you see the difference.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  6. #386
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Still irrelevant since Gibson is a purchaser and has no ability to verify or validate the country of origins information on where the wood came from, how it was logged, etc.

    "Fencing stolen property" means the person knew it was stolen... which is the problem; Gibson has not been shown to know this wood was illegally logged, fraudulently documented, etc. People do not go into prison when they buy property from Tiffany's, purchased in good faith, only to find out it was stolen. I'm sure you see the difference.
    True. I haven't been following this very closely, so I don't know what the law is. Of course it's possible, theoretically, that there could be strict liability, meaning that knowledge isn't an element. Even if there isn't strict liability, the contraband would still be subject to seizure.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  7. #387
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Well the problem is this (Feds go after Gibson Guitars RT)



    Thus, the US went and raided Gibson due to them breaking Indian laws, not American ones. Thus this brings up the questions Will the US start enforcing the laws of other nations in America?
    and 2) Just how much power does the Federal government have?
    As much power as it wants to claim it has.

  8. #388
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    True. I haven't been following this very closely, so I don't know what the law is. Of course it's possible, theoretically, that there could be strict liability, meaning that knowledge isn't an element. Even if there isn't strict liability, the contraband would still be subject to seizure.
    If that's the case why would the government continue to claim there are pending charges and an on going investigation for close to 4 years. IMO that's excessive, unreasonable and down right ridiculous - unless such actions have no legal implication at all and the actions were used as an intimidation tactic (ie., "Crucify them").
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  9. #389
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    If that's the case why would the government continue to claim there are pending charges and an on going investigation for close to 4 years. IMO that's excessive, unreasonable and down right ridiculous - unless such actions have no legal implication at all and the actions were used as an intimidation tactic (ie., "Crucify them").
    I have no idea. I could speculate, but it would be just that.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

  10. #390
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    So you know this is about illegal logging? Gibson doesn't log... they're a purchaser.


    You may be okay with the government issuing a warrant, taking all your stuff, then sitting on it indefinitely. I'm just not.

    You haven't gotten anything right. Gibson didn't do the illegal logging. Gibson factories were raided and millions of dollars of materials taken as "evidence" with no charges, twice. The government has issued no additional warrants nor arrests, therefore since there is a presupposition of charges being brought (ie., the warrant, the raid), the 6th amendment has been violated.
    Interesting how Ockham assumes that the lack of charges against Gibson means that Gibson is innocent, while the lack of lawsuits against the govt means the govt violated the 6th Amend
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