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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #351
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Link to where the countries in question said that what Gibson allegedly did was legal please?



    Sorry, but unsubstantiated speculation does not back up your claim that the 4th and 6th amendment was violated by DOJ and the courts that issued the search warrants.
    My claim of the 4th and 6th being violated will have to wait until Gibson day in court, until then. We all must remember now.. especially you people on the left that in this country citizens are innocent until proven guilty, all of our so called evidence is currently heresy until it is admitted into court.
    Gibson Guitar Wails on Federal Raid - WSJ.com
    Here is a plank of Indian Rosewood. It's been cut the rough dimension in India, which is a requirement of their export rules. It was approved by the export officials in India for export, it was accepted by U.S. Customs for import. We have all the documentation of thesefacts for every lot of wood we use here in Bozeman and everywhere in the company," says O'Brien.
    Snip:
    Federal Officials Raid Gibson Guitar Factories In Tennessee, Bozeman Plant Could Be Next - News Story - NBCMontana NBC Montana
    I took a few extra minutes to look up a site that is left friendly, it is a bit old but non the less there are 100's of sites and as recent as Sept. 9 2011 that make the same claim and thus far no one is refuting it. Non the less like Barbarian mentioned no one here has had their day in court yet, and this is where it will have to be played out. The difference between me and others and perhaps you is that Gibson currently in my eyes is innocent until proven guilty. If in fact there was intentional smuggling and violations of the law and proven so, then I am with you. Now if it goes the other way I hope we all seek some kind of justice for the abuse Gibson and been put through, unlike some here I will not engage in labeling, insults and bating..been there and done that and I've had enough..too old for that sh!t..
    Last edited by deltabtry; 09-20-11 at 12:48 AM.

  2. #352
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    My claim of the 4th and 6th being violated will have to wait until Gibson day in court, until then. We all must remember now.. especially you people on the left that in this country citizens are innocent until proven guilty, all of our so called evidence is currently heresy until it is admitted into court.
    It wasn't the people on the left that started this thread, and no one has said Gibson is guilty. What we were saying is that for so many to claim they are being unfairly targeted is BS based on the available facts in the case.

    Gibson Guitar Wails on Federal Raid - WSJ.com
    Here is a plank of Indian Rosewood. It's been cut the rough dimension in India, which is a requirement of their export rules. It was approved by the export officials in India for export, it was accepted by U.S. Customs for import. We have all the documentation of thesefacts for every lot of wood we use here in Bozeman and everywhere in the company," says O'Brien.
    Snip:
    Federal Officials Raid Gibson Guitar Factories In Tennessee, Bozeman Plant Could Be Next - News Story - NBCMontana NBC Montana
    I took a few extra minutes to look up a site that is left friendly, it is a bit old but non the less there are 100's of sites and as recent as Sept. 9 2011 that make the same claim and thus far no one is refuting it. Non the less like Barbarian mentioned no one here has had their day in court yet, and this is where it will have to be played out. The difference between me and others and perhaps you is that Gibson currently in my eyes is innocent until proven guilty. If in fact there was intentional smuggling and violations of the law and proven so, then I am with you. Now if it goes the other way I hope we all seek some kind of justice for the abuse Gibson and been put through, unlike some here I will not engage in labeling, insults and bating..been there and done that and I've had enough..too old for that sh!t..
    Again, as was pointed out by earlier by Lord Tammerlain, "The government currently it argueing that Gibson importerd ebony wood claiming it is a veneer, while the wood actually brought into the US is too thick to be a veneer.

    If this is the case then Gibson violated the law, the government of course needed to gather the wood and associated documents in order to either proof or disprove their case. As for the length of time, the vast majority of court cases vs corporations take years to work through the system."


    Of course they are considered innocent until proven guilty, no one has said otherwise. The argument has been against those that have made the unfounded claim that Gibson is being unfairly targeted, or that the 4th and 6th amendment has been ignored in pursuing this investigation. There are simply no facts to substantiate those claims.
    Last edited by Catawba; 09-20-11 at 01:42 AM.
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  3. #353
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Mr. Nix went to Madagascar in June 2008 on a trip organized by environmental groups to talk to local officials about selling responsibly harvested wood to makers of musical instruments. Afterward, in emails later seized by the government, he referred to "widespread corruption and theft of valuable woods" and the possibility of buying ebony and rosewood from Madagascar on "the grey market."

    In a June 4 court filing, Jerry Martin, U.S. Attorney for central Tennessee, quoted the emails, and said "Nix knew that the grey market meant purchasing contraband."

    Gibson has denied the allegation and said Mr. Nix's emails were quoted out of context


    The government has focused on a March 2009 shipment of ebony from Madagascar intended for guitar fingerboards. Madagascar law bars the export of certain unfinished wood products, according to both Gibson and the government. Gibson says the ebony had been cut into pieces and that local officials approved the export as a legal sale of finished goods.

    U.S. officials described the wood as "sawn timber" and said Madagascar officials were "defrauded" by a local exporter about the nature of the product
    .
    From the WSJ article. Reading the bolded areas to me sort of indicates at the very least Gibson knew of the possibility of being able to import unfinished wood through the use of corrupt exporters. If Gibson did intentionally work with corrupt exporters is something that is yet to be proven of course. But it certainly gives the government case some merit does it not


    As for last week's raid, the government said it had evidence that Indian ebony was "fraudulently" labeled in an attempt to evade an Indian ban on exports of unfinished wood.

    "It is very possible that a broker made the mistake in filling out a form," Mr. Juszkiewicz said. Gibson says the ebony was partially finished for use as fingerboards and that Indian officials have endorsed such exports as legal. A spokesman for India's commerce ministry had no immediate comment.

    After the 2009 raid, Mr. Juszkiewicz resigned from the board of the Rainforest Alliance, which seeks to preserve tropical forests. He said he didn't want to tar the nonprofit with bad publicity. A Rainforest Alliance spokeswoman said he wasn't pressured to step down, and the group continues to praise Gibson's efforts to promote responsible harvesting of wood
    In the case involving India, the governments position is that the wood was labelled as a veneer, while the thickness of the wood would not allow it to be classified as a veneer. Again the probablity of a corrupt person in India intentionally labelling the wood as a veneer is very possible.

    Now I am not saying Gibson is guilty, but the governemnt does seem to have a case


    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    My claim of the 4th and 6th being violated will have to wait until Gibson day in court, until then. We all must remember now.. especially you people on the left that in this country citizens are innocent until proven guilty, all of our so called evidence is currently heresy until it is admitted into court.
    Gibson Guitar Wails on Federal Raid - WSJ.com
    Here is a plank of Indian Rosewood. It's been cut the rough dimension in India, which is a requirement of their export rules. It was approved by the export officials in India for export, it was accepted by U.S. Customs for import. We have all the documentation of thesefacts for every lot of wood we use here in Bozeman and everywhere in the company," says O'Brien.
    Snip:
    Federal Officials Raid Gibson Guitar Factories In Tennessee, Bozeman Plant Could Be Next - News Story - NBCMontana NBC Montana
    I took a few extra minutes to look up a site that is left friendly, it is a bit old but non the less there are 100's of sites and as recent as Sept. 9 2011 that make the same claim and thus far no one is refuting it. Non the less like Barbarian mentioned no one here has had their day in court yet, and this is where it will have to be played out. The difference between me and others and perhaps you is that Gibson currently in my eyes is innocent until proven guilty. If in fact there was intentional smuggling and violations of the law and proven so, then I am with you. Now if it goes the other way I hope we all seek some kind of justice for the abuse Gibson and been put through, unlike some here I will not engage in labeling, insults and bating..been there and done that and I've had enough..too old for that sh!t..
    Happy Hanukkah Cheerfull Kwanzaa
    Happy Christmas Merry New Year Festivus for the rest of us

  4. #354
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    From the WSJ article. Reading the bolded areas to me sort of indicates at the very least Gibson knew of the possibility of being able to import unfinished wood through the use of corrupt exporters. If Gibson did intentionally work with corrupt exporters is something that is yet to be proven of course. But it certainly gives the government case some merit does it not


    In the case involving India, the governments position is that the wood was labelled as a veneer, while the thickness of the wood would not allow it to be classified as a veneer. Again the probablity of a corrupt person in India intentionally labelling the wood as a veneer is very possible.

    Now I am not saying Gibson is guilty, but the governemnt does seem to have a case
    And nobody cares that Gibson's CRIME is that they were the VICTIMS OF FRAUD, but are criminals because they sold products that they purchased under fraudulant pretenses... that's making the giant assumption that these charges aren't as trumped up as they seem to be given that no charges have been filed as of yet (to my knowledge).

  5. #355
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    And nobody cares that Gibson's CRIME is that they were the VICTIMS OF FRAUD, but are criminals because they sold products that they purchased under fraudulant pretenses... that's making the giant assumption that these charges aren't as trumped up as they seem to be given that no charges have been filed as of yet (to my knowledge).
    Oh I agree fully Gibsons was the victims of fraud. To lllustrate my believe in that I wil provide a personal story

    One day somebody offered to sell me car speakers from the back of a van for about 50% of retail value, brand new in the box. Why I jumped at the chance with such a good deal. Imagine my suprise when I get busted by the police for the possesion of stolen goods ( the speakers). I mean how could I have realized that someone selling speakers from the back of a van would be selling stolen goods. I mean no one would ever ever think that they were stolen, despite my knowledge that car speakers are often stolen and sometimes sold by people for deep discounts from the back of peoples vehicles. What is more suprising is that those speakers were not legal for sale in my area.

    Why I was definately the victim of fraud in that case, and the police should have realized that I was a law abiding citizen and would never knowingly buy stolen goods that were essential for my business operation. I am sure Gibson had the same feelings. I mean the fact that they knew that the wood could be obtained through the black market doesnt mean they actually sought such dealers. I am sure they believed fullly that the wood they couldnt buy before was somehow all of a sudden legal for sale through a particular exporter
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  6. #356
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    I think there will be no charges filed for obvious reasons, I'll end my posts on this thread with that. I really can't go any further until or if and when Gibson has it day in court, although not likely. We will just have to wait and see.

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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Oh I agree fully Gibsons was the victims of fraud. To lllustrate my believe in that I wil provide a personal story

    One day somebody offered to sell me car speakers from the back of a van for about 50% of retail value, brand new in the box. Why I jumped at the chance with such a good deal. Imagine my suprise when I get busted by the police for the possesion of stolen goods ( the speakers). I mean how could I have realized that someone selling speakers from the back of a van would be selling stolen goods. I mean no one would ever ever think that they were stolen, despite my knowledge that car speakers are often stolen and sometimes sold by people for deep discounts from the back of peoples vehicles. What is more suprising is that those speakers were not legal for sale in my area.

    Why I was definately the victim of fraud in that case, and the police should have realized that I was a law abiding citizen and would never knowingly buy stolen goods that were essential for my business operation. I am sure Gibson had the same feelings. I mean the fact that they knew that the wood could be obtained through the black market doesnt mean they actually sought such dealers. I am sure they believed fullly that the wood they couldnt buy before was somehow all of a sudden legal for sale through a particular exporter
    Now, a couple minor corrections to make your personal story more relevant :

    - Instead of a "back of the truck special", you bought the speakers from the store.
    - Just the regular price
    - supplied you with the documentation (receipts)
    - and the speakers can be resold only when they are valid with documentation (receipts), which you possessed

    AND STILL you get charged for selling the contraband. That's a safe bet why they have yet to be formally charged.

  8. #358
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Now, a couple minor corrections to make your personal story more relevant :

    - Instead of a "back of the truck special", you bought the speakers from the store.
    - Just the regular price
    - supplied you with the documentation (receipts)
    - and the speakers can be resold only when they are valid with documentation (receipts), which you possessed

    AND STILL you get charged for selling the contraband. That's a safe bet why they have yet to be formally charged.

    And the difference between your story and my story is what the government will be required to proof. Either way illegally goods are generally confiscated from the current owners despite their purchase in good faith or in bad faith
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    And the difference between your story and my story is what the government will be required to proof. Either way illegally goods are generally confiscated from the current owners despite their purchase in good faith or in bad faith
    Now, having the goods in question confiscated, sure, that's one thing. If he's got the documentation then he should not be charged because he bought, in good faith, materials labeled as legitimate. Now, if they ARE going to charge him with something, what are they waiting for?? This is something that's gone on against Gibson for years.

    Also, as a secondary point, this could have been handled without an SWAT style raid... it's not like they were hiding their business, it's not like they are crack dealers with a track record for violence. The situation could have been handled with 2 officers walking in and talking to the manager, nevermind with guns drawn.

    Also, this is just another notch in the trend of governments anti-entrepreneurship agenda. Stopping lemonade stands without business licenses (a 250$ license on a business that might produce 100$ in a week), raiding the amish, raiding organic food and raw dairy producers, arresting gold sellers as "counterfeiting", and more.

    There is no end to this debate, but my bottom line is that this law sets bad precedences all over if this gets ruled on in court, that this seems to be a case of official oppression against Gibson, musicians will no longer be willing to travel with their instruments because not having the paper work on the source of the wood might mean you are holding contraband that must be confiscated. Now, this company already has a pending case against them and you seriously think they are even going to think of risking buying illegal products???

    BUT, EVEN IF they are found guilty in this case, this crime is of being a victim. That's also not a good standard to adopt, at least IMO.

    So, with that I'm going to also officially bow out of this one.

  10. #360
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Now, having the goods in question confiscated, sure, that's one thing. If he's got the documentation then he should not be charged because he bought, in good faith, materials labeled as legitimate. Now, if they ARE going to charge him with something, what are they waiting for?? This is something that's gone on against Gibson for years.

    Also, as a secondary point, this could have been handled without an SWAT style raid... it's not like they were hiding their business, it's not like they are crack dealers with a track record for violence. The situation could have been handled with 2 officers walking in and talking to the manager, nevermind with guns drawn.

    Also, this is just another notch in the trend of governments anti-entrepreneurship agenda. Stopping lemonade stands without business licenses (a 250$ license on a business that might produce 100$ in a week), raiding the amish, raiding organic food and raw dairy producers, arresting gold sellers as "counterfeiting", and more.

    There is no end to this debate, but my bottom line is that this law sets bad precedences all over if this gets ruled on in court, that this seems to be a case of official oppression against Gibson, musicians will no longer be willing to travel with their instruments because not having the paper work on the source of the wood might mean you are holding contraband that must be confiscated. Now, this company already has a pending case against them and you seriously think they are even going to think of risking buying illegal products???

    BUT, EVEN IF they are found guilty in this case, this crime is of being a victim. That's also not a good standard to adopt, at least IMO.

    So, with that I'm going to also officially bow out of this one.

    Have you read the Affidavit in support of the search warrants Bman? I posted a link to it here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059806641


    Please read the Affidavit and let me know why you think the Law Enforcement Division of Fish & Wildlife did not have probable cause to conduct the search.
    Last edited by Catawba; 09-21-11 at 03:48 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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