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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #331
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    Doesn't the federal government have better things to do like raiding Amish milk farmers?

    Our economy is falling apart and the federal government is concerned over trees located in Madagascar. I love how our tax money is spent.
    This was addressed earlier in the thread:

    "Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059769012

    Do have any understanding of the negative effects deforestation can have on the world's, ecosystem, climate, and economy?
    Last edited by Catawba; 09-18-11 at 08:50 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #332
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your arguments are becoming delerious. Seriously.



    The feds can raid Gibson as many times as the courts allow them to. That's the law.

    The Clinton admin was subject to numerous warrants and subpeonas during the Lewinsky investigation. Did you protest them?




    If the court issues a warrant, then it is not unreasonable unless you're now going off the deep end and claiming the court is also in on the conspiracy against Gibson
    Your arguments are becoming delerious. Seriously.
    Well LOL.

    The feds can raid Gibson as many times as the courts allow them to. That's the law.
    We do not live in banana republic, both law enforcement and the courts have to operate within the boundaries set forth by the constitution. If there is a abuse of power both law enforcement and the courts can be held to account.

    The Clinton admin was subject to numerous warrants and subpeonas during the Lewinsky investigation. Did you protest them?
    What's this have to do with Gibson? ...are you trying to politicize this argument?

    If the court issues a warrant, then it is not unreasonable unless you're now going off the deep end and claiming the court is also in on the conspiracy against Gibson
    First off I don't hold any court in the God status, if there is misconduct or a simple error, then the courts should be held to account. Judges can be impeached and BTW should be elected by the people as it once was with the exception of perhaps SCOTUS. Life time appoints breeds corruption and favoritism and advocacy for one group over another. .. Lastly my complaint is simple I believe both the fourth and sixth amendment may have been violated and a case could be made, and what really incensed me about this was the armed invasion when a simple audit and investigation would have sufficed.
    Your not going to bate me into a political argument here, there is nothing political about it.

  3. #333
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This was addressed earlier in the thread:

    "Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059769012

    Do have any understanding of the negative effects deforestation can have on the world's, ecosystem, climate, and economy?
    "Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."
    This we agree on.

  4. #334
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    This we agree on.
    I am glad we have something we can agree on! This why enforcement of anti-trafficking laws are so important, to not only the US, but the world.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #335
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This was addressed earlier in the thread:

    "Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059769012

    Do have any understanding of the negative effects deforestation can have on the world's, ecosystem, climate, and economy?

    Well you may or may not have a point, there seem to be some dispute if the wood seized in this latest raid, is wood from Madagascar … or if it's wood from India.


    What I find disturbing about this, is the fact that they haven't yet brought charges from the first raid that happened over 19 months ago. Gibson has sued the government for return of the seized wood. Now the Government is using this new case to convince a federal judge to indefinitely delay this lawsuit .


    “IF” Gibson has done anything wrong, fine, the government needs to present it's case, and let a judge, or jury decide. But to me something is seriously wrong when our own government can seize a half million dollars worth of raw product from a company, and 19 month later still not charge that company with anything, not only not charge them, but raid them again, for what seems to be the soul reason of stopping a lawsuit by that company from having their day in court.

  6. #336
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    Well LOL.

    We do not live in banana republic, both law enforcement and the courts have to operate within the boundaries set forth by the constitution. If there is a abuse of power both law enforcement and the courts can be held to account.
    And what I said in no way contradicts that. The warrants were obtained in the prescribed manner and no one has been able to provide any evidence to the contrary


    What's this have to do with Gibson? ...are you trying to politicize this argument?
    What a joke your argument has become. After your biased accusations that this investigation is based on politics, you are now trying to back away from it.

    And dont think I didn't notice how you avoided answering the question. The reason for your avoidance is obvious

    First off I don't hold any court in the God status, if there is misconduct or a simple error, then the courts should be held to account. Judges can be impeached and BTW should be elected by the people as it once was with the exception of perhaps SCOTUS. Life time appoints breeds corruption and favoritism and advocacy for one group over another. .. Lastly my complaint is simple I believe both the fourth and sixth amendment may have been violated and a case could be made, and what really incensed me about this was the armed invasion when a simple audit and investigation would have sufficed.
    Your not going to bate me into a political argument here, there is nothing political about it.
    And another claim of unconstitutionality without any evidence being presented. You don't even TRY to make a case. You've done nothing but claim that "a case could be made". I'll believe that when I see it.
    Last edited by sangha; 09-19-11 at 12:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #337
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Well you may or may not have a point, there seem to be some dispute if the wood seized in this latest raid, is wood from Madagascar … or if it's wood from India.


    What I find disturbing about this, is the fact that they haven't yet brought charges from the first raid that happened over 19 months ago. Gibson has sued the government for return of the seized wood. Now the Government is using this new case to convince a federal judge to indefinitely delay this lawsuit .


    IF” Gibson has done anything wrong, fine, the government needs to present it's case, and let a judge, or jury decide. But to me something is seriously wrong when our own government can seize a half million dollars worth of raw product from a company, and 19 month later still not charge that company with anything, not only not charge them, but raid them again, for what seems to be the soul reason of stopping a lawsuit by that company from having their day in court.
    You can rant all you want about "SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!" and "SOMETHING IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL" but without evidence, you've got nothing but your rant
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #338
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Well you may or may not have a point, there seem to be some dispute if the wood seized in this latest raid, is wood from Madagascar … or if it's wood from India.
    The 2009 investigation was about illegally imported wood by Gibson from Madagascar, this years investigation was about illegally imported wood by Gibson from India.


    What I find disturbing about this, is the fact that they haven't yet brought charges from the first raid that happened over 19 months ago. Gibson has sued the government for return of the seized wood. Now the Government is using this new case to convince a federal judge to indefinitely delay this lawsuit .


    IF” Gibson has done anything wrong, fine, the government needs to present it's case, and let a judge, or jury decide. But to me something is seriously wrong when our own government can seize a half million dollars worth of raw product from a company, and 19 month later still not charge that company with anything, not only not charge them, but raid them again, for what seems to be the soul reason of stopping a lawsuit by that company from having their day in court.
    As has been pointed out by Lord Tammerlain, "the vast majority of court cases vs corporations take years to work through the system."

    Here is the complete Affidavit in support of the search warrant authorized by the court. It should answer your questions about the case:

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  9. #339
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And what I said in no way contradicts that. The warrants were obtained in the prescribed manner and no one has been able to provide any evidence to the contrary




    What a joke your argument has become. After your biased accusations that this investigation is based on politics, you are now trying to back away from it.

    And dont think I didn't notice how you avoided answering the question. The reason for your avoidance is obvious



    And another claim of unconstitutionality without any evidence being presented. You don't even TRY to make a case. You've done nothing but claim that "a case could be made". I'll believe that when I see it.
    After your biased accusations that this investigation is based on politics, you are now trying to back away from it.
    You'll have to back this up with a reference, I haven't singled out any particular party on this topic, my complaint is with the government.
    And dont think I didn't notice how you avoided answering the question. The reason for your avoidance is obvious
    Staying on topic is not avoidance but if you open a new thread we can discuss Clinton etc.

  10. #340
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    You'll have to back this up with a reference, I haven't singled out any particular party on this topic, my complaint is with the government.
    ANd complaining about the govt without any evidence is political. It is based on your political ideology and nothing else. It certainly isn't based on any evidence because it's obvious you have none.

    Staying on topic is not avoidance but if you open a new thread we can discuss Clinton etc.
    The topic is the one you raised - multiple searches without an indictment. There's nothing wrong with bringing up other instances when this has happened, instances I doubt you had a problem with because they don't fit your political agenda.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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