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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Nearly two years later, and Gibson has yet to be charged for anything in the first raid. Now they get raided again, and more wood seized, and as of yet no charges have been filed. Does something seem amiss here? Why is Gibson the only one being harassed ? [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
    Ya, the lacey act needs to be re-written or struck down as unconstitutional. I don't know of any other law where the violator of the lay can be the victim of a crime. Either that or let's at least make the law consistent.

    So, if you are the victim of fraud you get charged in the crime, if you are the victim of theft you are charged as a thief, hell, even rape. You're little girl gets raped she's going to jail for 15 years.

    That's how laws SHOULD work in this country. Criminalize the innocent. Great idea.

    As for why they are being harassed; I see the only choices are - coincidence, - guilt, or - politics. Meanwhile, very little actually happens by coincidence, especially in matters of politics and law. Very few guilty people go without getting charged for their crimes if they are going through the legal process. And well, in america we don't talk about political reasoning.

    How and why did this organization approve this sale ( FSC:*About FSC *-Forest Stewardship Council ) there is much more, some of it I can't find any documentation to, but according to the CEO of Gibson, this would all go away, if they just shipped some of there work overseas.
    That's what the head of gibson was saying, that the prosecutors told him to move his operation overseas to avoid these crimes. Which if it actually happened, would just be another piece of evidence pointing out the agenda to deindustrialize the united states. (That agenda being that America is going to be the worlds prison system, either you are a prison guard, police or prisoner)

    This is just a case, where one has to ask why? If laws are being broken, then why have no charges been filed from the 2009 raid? One can only summarize that something more is going on here.
    No, they are just guilty. Why bother with pesky laws when you can just make stuff up, claim to have probable cause enough to get a raid going, and then just never charge them, but keep saying you got more and more evidence. Hell, I bet every couple years they'll get raided if they don't move to China or India.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Ya, the lacey act needs to be re-written or struck down as unconstitutional. I don't know of any other law where the violator of the lay can be the victim of a crime. Either that or let's at least make the law consistent.

    So, if you are the victim of fraud you get charged in the crime, if you are the victim of theft you are charged as a thief, hell, even rape. You're little girl gets raped she's going to jail for 15 years.

    That's how laws SHOULD work in this country. Criminalize the innocent. Great idea.

    As for why they are being harassed; I see the only choices are - coincidence, - guilt, or - politics. Meanwhile, very little actually happens by coincidence, especially in matters of politics and law. Very few guilty people go without getting charged for their crimes if they are going through the legal process. And well, in america we don't talk about political reasoning.



    That's what the head of gibson was saying, that the prosecutors told him to move his operation overseas to avoid these crimes. Which if it actually happened, would just be another piece of evidence pointing out the agenda to deindustrialize the united states. (That agenda being that America is going to be the worlds prison system, either you are a prison guard, police or prisoner)



    No, they are just guilty. Why bother with pesky laws when you can just make stuff up, claim to have probable cause enough to get a raid going, and then just never charge them, but keep saying you got more and more evidence. Hell, I bet every couple years they'll get raided if they don't move to China or India.
    yea. like the head of gibson doesn't have any motivation to spin the facts

    let's take this issue where he insists he was advised to move off shore to avoid American prosecution. yep, that would no longer make the company subject to the lacey act. but gibson also would no longer be able to sell its guitars to the world's largest market. at least not those guitars which were not in compliance with lacey act provisions
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    yea. like the head of gibson doesn't have any motivation to spin the facts
    Yes and no, yes for obvious reasons so they don't look bad, but no, because the facts will come out in court.

    let's take this issue where he insists he was advised to move off shore to avoid American prosecution. yep, that would no longer make the company subject to the lacey act. but gibson also would no longer be able to sell its guitars to the world's largest market. at least not those guitars which were not in compliance with lacey act provisions
    Or, they simply won't persecute them anymore if they "play ball", but that point assumes that they are guilty as well.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Or, they simply won't persecute them anymore if they "play ball", but that point assumes that they are guilty as well.
    I increasingly get the feeling that "playing ball" means that either they get behind Obama, or get run out of the country.....Isn't it great how unleashed progressivism works? Say goodbye to an American icon, the Gibson guitar, all because Obama want's that backing....

    What a bunch of putz's....

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    "One of the main pierces of evidence Gibson brings to prove its case is the fact that although 21 months passed since the first raid in 2009, criminal charges have not been filed. At the same time, they add, “the Government still holds Gibson’s property”. Both facts are truth and indeed it is not clear why no charges have been filed so far. Nevertheless, this is not the whole story. According to Sound & Fair, Gibson filed a motion to overturn the US Fish and Wildlife Service charges, but the agency successfully overturned the motion.

    This is not the only detail Gibson fails to mention regarding the 2009 raid. Gibson claims on its press release that it “has obtained sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government and these materials, which have been filed in federal court, show that the wood seized in 2009 was legally exported under Madagascar law and that no law has been violated.” Now, we’ll leave the compliance with the law to the court to decide on, but it is clear that Gibson does not believe there was any wrongdoing on their side in this case.

    Yet, on July 2010 Rainforest Alliance announced that Gibson is working with them on a new wood sourcing plan following the 2009 raid. The new plan had six key elements and the first one was: “Gibson is eliminating risk in its supply chain by identifying potentially illegal or unsustainable sources, banning future purchases of ebony or rosewood from Madagascar, and requiring all future purchases are from documented legal sources”. So apparently Gibson understood that there was something wrong with the purchase of these sorts of wood from Madagascar and that even if it complies with the law (which is yet to be seen), this sort of action does not meet the sustainability standards they claim to employ.

    Another important point made by Rainforest Alliance was that “securing FSC-certified supply is critical for Gibson, but also must be accompanied by a clear commitment to eliminating any volume, no matter how small, of illegal wood that may contaminate its supply chain.” This statement shows that FSC-certification is not the end of the journey, but only part of it. So even though Gibson claims now that “the wood the Government seized on August 24 is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier and is FSC Controlled”, it still does not mean it is kosher.

    Another consequence of the 2009 raid was that Gibson’s CEO has taken a leave of absence as a board member of the Rainforest Alliance. It’s not clear what the consequences of the latest raid will be, but one thing is sure – even if Gibson will prove its innocence at the court of law, it has now a much larger burden of proof to show it is really committed to sustainability. If Gibson wants to save and strengthen whatever is left of its green credibility, it better start being more transparent and ready to address criticism and a bit less occupied with putting on the blame on the big bad government."

    Is Gibson Guitars Unfairly Bullied or Have They Really Screwed Up… Again?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "One of the main pierces of evidence Gibson brings to prove its case is the fact that although 21 months passed since the first raid in 2009, criminal charges have not been filed. At the same time, they add, “the Government still holds Gibson’s property”. Both facts are truth and indeed it is not clear why no charges have been filed so far. Nevertheless, this is not the whole story. According to Sound & Fair, Gibson filed a motion to overturn the US Fish and Wildlife Service charges, but the agency successfully overturned the motion.

    This is not the only detail Gibson fails to mention regarding the 2009 raid. Gibson claims on its press release that it “has obtained sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government and these materials, which have been filed in federal court, show that the wood seized in 2009 was legally exported under Madagascar law and that no law has been violated.” Now, we’ll leave the compliance with the law to the court to decide on, but it is clear that Gibson does not believe there was any wrongdoing on their side in this case.

    Yet, on July 2010 Rainforest Alliance announced that Gibson is working with them on a new wood sourcing plan following the 2009 raid. The new plan had six key elements and the first one was: “Gibson is eliminating risk in its supply chain by identifying potentially illegal or unsustainable sources, banning future purchases of ebony or rosewood from Madagascar, and requiring all future purchases are from documented legal sources”. So apparently Gibson understood that there was something wrong with the purchase of these sorts of wood from Madagascar and that even if it complies with the law (which is yet to be seen), this sort of action does not meet the sustainability standards they claim to employ.

    Another important point made by Rainforest Alliance was that “securing FSC-certified supply is critical for Gibson, but also must be accompanied by a clear commitment to eliminating any volume, no matter how small, of illegal wood that may contaminate its supply chain.” This statement shows that FSC-certification is not the end of the journey, but only part of it. So even though Gibson claims now that “the wood the Government seized on August 24 is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier and is FSC Controlled”, it still does not mean it is kosher.

    Another consequence of the 2009 raid was that Gibson’s CEO has taken a leave of absence as a board member of the Rainforest Alliance. It’s not clear what the consequences of the latest raid will be, but one thing is sure – even if Gibson will prove its innocence at the court of law, it has now a much larger burden of proof to show it is really committed to sustainability. If Gibson wants to save and strengthen whatever is left of its green credibility, it better start being more transparent and ready to address criticism and a bit less occupied with putting on the blame on the big bad government."

    Is Gibson Guitars Unfairly Bullied or Have They Really Screwed Up… Again?
    I am shocked that Nick Aster, a "Green Progressive" is against a long time icon in the music business. What happened, Gibson failed to pay off a shake down from this twit?

    j-mac
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I am shocked that Nick Aster, a "Green Progressive" is against a long time icon in the music business. What happened, Gibson failed to pay off a shake down from this twit?

    j-mac

    Meh, hardly shocking that you form opinions without the benefit of facts.
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Meh, hardly shocking that you form opinions without the benefit of facts.
    Who says what you posted has anything to do with fact? Nick Aster is a greenie weenie.....And thus gave his usual skewed opinion. You tend to buy into that which you agree with is not my problem.

    j-mac
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Who says what you posted has anything to do with fact? Nick Aster is a greenie weenie.....And thus gave his usual skewed opinion. You tend to buy into that which you agree with is not my problem.

    j-mac
    Here are the facts I've presented to back up my opinion:

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Guitars with rosewood and ebony and other endangered species are too valuable to risk to damage in out of country travel. It would be wise to travel abroad with guitars made from wood legal today. In this country, existing uses of endangered woods are grandfathered. The purpose of the laws are to prevent the trafficking of endangered species.

    "A motion filed last month by the U.S. Department of Justice alleges Gibson Guitar knew it was trafficking in endangered timber when it was busted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in November 2009, reports the Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA)."

    "The federal prosecutors say that while Gibson knew of the questionable timber, and even acknowledged it as such, the guitar-maker went ahead with buying ebony from Nagel, a supplier in Germany. "

    "Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

    Endangered species trafficking: What did Gibson Guitar know?
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "The U.S. Justice Department won't comment about the case it's preparing, but a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.

    Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

    "Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says Johnson. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

    Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Here is further info about the case:

    "In June 2011, the United States Department of Justice filed a civil case against Gibson, stating: "Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood." The filing also made mention of internal emails from 2008 and 2009 that discussed ebony species from Madagascar and plans to harvest it.[18][19] The case against Gibson Guitar was the first under the amended Lacey Act, which requires importing companies to purchase legally harvested wood and follow the environmental laws of the producing countries regardless of corruption or lack of enforcement.[19]"

    "
    The charges against the company constitute a felony, and if proven, the company could face large fines and the executives involved could face jail terms."
    Gibson Guitar Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Show me the basis for your assumption that a civil case precludes separate criminal charges? As referenced in the Wiki article (16):

    "Fish and Wildlife Service agent's affidavit indicates charges forthcoming."
    Federal agent: Gibson wood investigation likely to result in indictments | nashvillepost.com
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thanks for your opinion. I prefer facts myself:

    "The government has not yet released a statement to the public on the case, but the affidavit filed to obtain the search warrants has been unsealed and is circulating (ref: “Affidavit in Support of Search Warrant #11-MJ-1067 A,B,C,D”). The facts referred to below are based on information contained in this affidavit. The Environmental Investigation Agency urges the FWS to issue further statements in order to help calm the confusion and concern generated among many companies and individuals in the musical instruments industry, other businesses and the media.

    The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."

    Background: the Lacey Act and the Fish & Wildlife Service raid on Gibson Guitars
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This is why you have been unable to find a docket #:

    "Nicholas Chavez, a New Mexico-based Fish and Wildlife Service agent, said investigators also presented a criminal case to the Justice Department after the 2009 raid. While no charges have yet to be filed, federal prosecutors in Nashville recently asked a judge to temporarily suspend the civil case while a criminal investigation is pursued."
    Gibson Guitar chief denies wrongdoing after raids | The Tennessean | tennessean.com


    I've yet to see any facts presented by you to back up your opinion.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Here are the facts I've presented to back up my opinion:















    I've yet to see any facts presented by you to back up your opinion.
    the facts are real simple.

    1. Feds raided Gibson in 2009, result? No criminal charges
    2. Feds raid Gibson again this year citing what amounts to a paperwork clerical error, result, don't know yet, neither do you
    3. When asked what Gibson can do to comply and stop these raids? Answer from the Obama DoJ, Move your operation overseas....

    Speculation will result from here on out until we see a resolution to this crap. And that goes for your argument as well. You have already in your mind deemed Gibson guilty. Why? Because they are not Obama donors? Or is it that you just don't like Gibson, and think that you agree more politically with Fender?

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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