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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #191
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Then why was it claimed that I "had no knowledge" and my "opinions" were uneducated. If they and you think so, let's see some proof of it.
    You are dishonestly taking the comments you quoted out of context and presenting them as stand alone comments. What I said was, "The only thing that is obvious from your posts is that you have no knowledge with which to base your uneducated opinions."


    First you say you don't know this information then "It appears" they broke the law ???? Sounds like you pulled it out of you a** to me.
    Please, just the facts:

    "The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."



    The only court case I've been able to document is that Gibson is asking the court to return the material they took in 2009. It's my understanding that the case is due in court very soon.
    You need to go back and read what has already been documented. The civil case was withdrawn so that a criminal case could be pursued. This has already been documented in this thread.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #192
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Well, the fact that even your admission shows that gibson is the victim of a fraud to start, that he has documentation, listen to the interviews the CEO of Gibson gives where he's fighting back tears because his company took every effort to work within the law, and because the last attempt to determine that they were buying illegal wood never worked out and they were never charged.

    Oh and also, ever heard of the presumption of innocence... And this is the first time where ive heard of a law geared towards people that are victims of another's crime and can be found guilty.

    Thing is, in the Lacey act you are still in violation of the law even I you are the victim of fraud. Can you at least admit that this is a bad precedent to set??

    What next, do we start charging victims of theft? Vandalism? Rape?
    I like the way you use the presumption of innocence argument after accusing Obama of ordering the raid because Gibson didn't contribute to his campaign. That was very consistent of you

    (note: by "like", I mean the way rightwingers "like" taxes, and by "consistent" I meant "consistently dishonest")
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  3. #193
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You are dishonestly taking the comments you quoted out of context and presenting them as stand alone comments. What I said was, "The only thing that is obvious from your posts is that you have no knowledge with which to base your uneducated opinions."




    Please, just the facts:

    "The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."





    You need to go back and read what has already been documented. The civil case was withdrawn so that a criminal case could be pursued. This has already been documented in this thread.

    Sounds like a paperwork foul up to me....And one that the authorities would have to pour over to find....You know like when a prosecutor investigates for two years and can't find anything of substance to go after, so they look for a process charge.

    There are questions that are open that make this look like a political persecution rather than a legitimate prosecution.

    First is the question of why only Gibson? When there are other guitar makers in the USA that use the same wood, obtained from the same sources.

    Second is the assertion that other guitar makers are declared demo's that have documented contributions to the Obama campaign.

    Third is the fact that the head of Gibson is a republican, and donates to republicans.

    Fourth is the fact that Gibson is among the ONLY non Union shops making guitars.

    Fifth is the statement by Holder that it isn't a political prosecution. When ever he says something like that, it usually is indeed political. Think the voter intimidation from the New Black Panthers in Philly.

    It is true we will have to see this play out, and final determinations on this would prove out, at least as much as they can.

    My feeling is that nothing will come of these raids, and when Obama is voted out, the cases will disappear as strangely as they appeared without fanfare....So I guess everyone can assert anything now, because it will fade away....But to me this shows the thuggery of the Obama administration and American's should be asking themselves is this the type of monkey business they want running this country.

    j-mac
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  4. #194
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Sounds like a paperwork foul up to me....And one that the authorities would have to pour over to find....You know like when a prosecutor investigates for two years and can't find anything of substance to go after, so they look for a process charge.
    And it seems like just a short while ago that the wingnuts were arguing that Gibsons teams of lawyers wouldn't let them import wood illegally, but now it seems they're so incompetent they can't even fill out a form correctly

    There are questions that are open that make this look like a political persecution rather than a legitimate prosecution.

    First is the question of why only Gibson? When there are other guitar makers in the USA that use the same wood, obtained from the same sources.

    Second is the assertion that other guitar makers are declared demo's that have documented contributions to the Obama campaign.

    Third is the fact that the head of Gibson is a republican, and donates to republicans.

    Fourth is the fact that Gibson is among the ONLY non Union shops making guitars.

    Fifth is the statement by Holder that it isn't a political prosecution. When ever he says something like that, it usually is indeed political. Think the voter intimidation from the New Black Panthers in Philly.

    It is true we will have to see this play out, and final determinations on this would prove out, at least as much as they can.

    My feeling is that nothing will come of these raids, and when Obama is voted out, the cases will disappear as strangely as they appeared without fanfare....So I guess everyone can assert anything now, because it will fade away....But to me this shows the thuggery of the Obama administration and American's should be asking themselves is this the type of monkey business they want running this country.

    j-mac
    So much for the presumption of innocence argument
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #195
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    And it seems like just a short while ago that the wingnuts were arguing that Gibsons teams of lawyers wouldn't let them import wood illegally, but now it seems they're so incompetent they can't even fill out a form correctly
    Clerical mistakes happen. Does that normally lead to criminal prosecution? Hardly. Now you want to make out Gibson guitars as incompetent? I wonder if that has to do with my pointing out that they donate to repubs? or if you are just distracting from your own shortcomings in argument?

    So much for the presumption of innocence argument
    This presumption is afforded to the accused, not the accuser.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  6. #196
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Clerical mistakes happen. Does that normally lead to criminal prosecution? Hardly. Now you want to make out Gibson guitars as incompetent? I wonder if that has to do with my pointing out that they donate to repubs? or if you are just distracting from your own shortcomings in argument?
    So the emails that Gibson sent out were "clerical errors"? :



    This presumption is afforded to the accused, not the accuser.


    j-mac
    You mean the presumption you gave to Obama?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #197
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    So the emails that Gibson sent out were "clerical errors"? :





    You mean the presumption you gave to Obama?

    So it is political payback....Thanks for admitting that. I just love when liberal progressives reveal their true thug selves.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  8. #198
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This is why you have been unable to find a docket #:

    "Nicholas Chavez, a New Mexico-based Fish and Wildlife Service agent, said investigators also presented a criminal case to the Justice Department after the 2009 raid. While no charges have yet to be filed, federal prosecutors in Nashville recently asked a judge to temporarily suspend the civil case while a criminal investigation is pursued."
    Gibson Guitar chief denies wrongdoing after raids | The Tennessean | tennessean.com
    To sum up then: There's no civil case - as it's (assumed to be) suspended. And there's no criminal case for the 2009 raid which was 3 years ago.

    That's what I've been saying all along. :
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  9. #199
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So it is political payback....Thanks for admitting that. I just love when liberal progressives reveal their true thug selves.


    j-mac
    ANd thanks for demonstrating an ability to completely misconstrue what was said. I just love when rightwingers reveal their inability to comprehend their own hypocrisy
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #200
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    So the emails that Gibson sent out were "clerical errors"? :





    You mean the presumption you gave to Obama?
    this final expression is pure reich wing/teabagger gold:
    ... monkey business they want running this country
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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