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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #181
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Even when everyone gets the wood from the same supplier going through the same certification process???
    Where is your proof they went through the same certification process, or is that just your hunch?

    As documented above: "The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."

    Let's see your proof that refutes that assessment by the EIA?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #182
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Where is your proof they went through the same certification process, or is that just your hunch?

    As documented above: "The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."

    Let's see your proof that refutes that assessment by the EIA?
    while he is at it, how about also showing us evidence that this is selective enforcement
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  3. #183
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    Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I've played the 4 string version - late 70's natural through a Hartke rig - very nice! I've been on the hunt for a 4003 5-string, not the modified 4-string but the actual fiver since Rick stopped making them a while back. They're hard to come by and when I have seen them, quite expensive. If among your travels you see one... I'd sure be interested!
    I was trying to teach myself how to play a bass for a while. I played an double bass in high school. I've actually been to the Gibson factory in Memphis.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  4. #184
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The only thing that is obvious from your posts is that you have no knowledge with which to base your uneducated opinions. I would suggest you wait for more facts to come out, but, I know from past experience that will not stop you, so continue to rant away and roll your eyes if it makes you feel better!
    What is obvious to everyone familiar with you is that you resort to insults when you are unable to refute another poster's comments, like you just did.

    It's also obvious to everyone that you didn't even address the quotes I posted, much less rebut them. THAT says a lot about you.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  5. #185
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The only thing thats obvious is that your posts have no basis in reality. You have consistently mistated the facts
    Perhaps you'd like to do what Catawba was unable to and point out the facts from the quotes I posted that are misstated or no basis in reality.

    Was Juszkiewicz not invited to Obama's campaign speech tonight ???

    Was the wood not certified by the Forest Stewardship Council ??

    Your "well thought out" rebuttal along with your proof will be eagerly awaited .............. But I won't hold my breath waiting for it. Your's and Catawba's style lean more toward the kamikaze attack, then when challenged you run back to mommy's basement.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Where is your proof they went through the same certification process, or is that just your hunch?

    As documented above: "The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."

    Let's see your proof that refutes that assessment by the EIA?
    Well, the fact that even your admission shows that gibson is the victim of a fraud to start, that he has documentation, listen to the interviews the CEO of Gibson gives where he's fighting back tears because his company took every effort to work within the law, and because the last attempt to determine that they were buying illegal wood never worked out and they were never charged.

    Oh and also, ever heard of the presumption of innocence... And this is the first time where ive heard of a law geared towards people that are victims of another's crime and can be found guilty.

    Thing is, in the Lacey act you are still in violation of the law even I you are the victim of fraud. Can you at least admit that this is a bad precedent to set??

    What next, do we start charging victims of theft? Vandalism? Rape?

  7. #187
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    What is obvious to everyone familiar with you is that you resort to insults when you are unable to refute another poster's comments, like you just did.
    if you feel you are insulted, there is a mechanism available on the bottom left of each post to notify the mods. you should activate it; (look for a triangular symbol). i don't see any insult, but then i am certainly not a mod. assuming you failed to alert the mods when you saw what you believed to be an insult, then your rant is found to be a diversion to avoid addressing what had been posted in response to you

    It's also obvious to everyone that you didn't even address the quotes I posted, much less rebut them. THAT says a lot about you.
    let me play. in blue font, we will find what you posted and of which you whined about not receiving a response:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Gibson and their allies are not going down without a fight. I hope Obama sees him and realizes who he is.
    the authorities appear to be collecting evidence to determine to what extent, if any, gibson has violated the federal law. gibson says it wants its day in court. if the government acquires the evidence it needs to bring a case forward, gibson will receive its wish

    i am unable to respond to your reference to Obama and the allies of gibson. only you seem you know of such nexus and you have chosen not to share those closely held insights. hopefully, you are aware we are not mind readers

    It is obvious that the justice dept. is interpreting an Indian law differently than the Indian government is. The wood obtained by Gibson is certified by the Forest Stewardship Council as having been legally harvested. It appears that the wood would be ok if Gibson contracted to an Indian company to have it finished then shipped to Gibson for installation.

    Sounds like a good way to increase American employment to me.
    and if gibson has the documentation you insist it possesses, then it will prevail in court - if prosecution makes a case
    my speculation, based on some of the statements found in this thread, is that gibson may have manipulated the documents for fret board wood to be assigned a numeric code to describe them as something other than what they were actually found to be. if true, then that may constitute a form of fraudulent behavior

    this is found to be an objective description of the matter; i commend it to you; Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  8. #188
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Perhaps you'd like to do what Catawba was unable to and point out the facts from the quotes I posted that are misstated or no basis in reality.
    this thread has been rife with cites describing what is going on ... at least to the extent the authorities have publicly exposed what they know
    if you choose not to peruse the thread to read them then here is an excellent overview: Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR

    Was Juszkiewicz not invited to Obama's campaign speech tonight ???
    why would we be expected to know this information and how is it germane to the topic?

    Was the wood not certified by the Forest Stewardship Council ??
    i do not know this information. but it appears gibson's documentation identifies the fretboard wood to be something other than the sawn wood exceeding 8mm, which it was purported to be; (musical instrument components and veneer wood were cited as how gibson had - potentially - misclassified the sawn wood)

    Your "well thought out" rebuttal along with your proof will be eagerly awaited .............. But I won't hold my breath waiting for it. Your's and Catawba's style lean more toward the kamikaze attack, then when challenged you run back to mommy's basement.
    we will all be awaiting information to learn whether the federal government levies a criminal charge against gibson. at this time, with the limited factual information available, we are all engaging in speculation
    in your previous post, you objected to what you perceived to be an insult. do you not believe that your expression "... when challenged you run back to mommy's basement" to be found insulting. those you insulted can activate the notification to the mods just as you can should you believe you were the victim of an insult. i do hope you are able to recognize the hypocrisy of objecting to insults being posted in your direction while engaging in them yourself
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  9. #189
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    this thread has been rife with cites describing what is going on ... at least to the extent the authorities have publicly exposed what they know
    if you choose not to peruse the thread to read them then here is an excellent overview: Why Gibson Guitar Was Raided By The Justice Department : The Record : NPR

    why would we be expected to know this information and how is it germane to the topic?
    Then why was it claimed that I "had no knowledge" and my "opinions" were uneducated. If they and you think so, let's see some proof of it.

    i do not know this information. but it appears gibson's documentation identifies the fretboard wood to be something other than the sawn wood exceeding 8mm, which it was purported to be; (musical instrument components and veneer wood were cited as how gibson had - potentially - misclassified the sawn wood)
    First you say you don't know this information then "It appears" they broke the law ???? Sounds like you pulled it out of you a** to me.

    we will all be awaiting information to learn whether the federal government levies a criminal charge against gibson. at this time, with the limited factual information available, we are all engaging in speculation
    Yes we will. The only court case I've been able to document is that Gibson is asking the court to return the material they took in 2009. It's my understanding that the case is due in court very soon.

    in your previous post, you objected to what you perceived to be an insult. do you not believe that your expression "... when challenged you run back to mommy's basement" to be found insulting. those you insulted can activate the notification to the mods just as you can should you believe you were the victim of an insult. i do hope you are able to recognize the hypocrisy of objecting to insults being posted in your direction while engaging in them yourself
    You accusing others of hypocrisy provided my laugh for the morning.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  10. #190
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Then why was it claimed that I "had no knowledge" and my "opinions" were uneducated. If they and you think so, let's see some proof of it.
    you asked for information which had already been stated to now be unavailable ... until the government processes its case without cloture
    here is an example which indicates you make inquiries which have nothing to do with the topic at hand:
    Was Juszkiewicz not invited to Obama's campaign speech tonight ???
    i would still want to know what caused you to ask that question

    First you say you don't know this information then "It appears" they broke the law ???? Sounds like you pulled it out of you a** to me.
    as i noted, that was speculation based on the information previously cited within this thread. there were indications that gibson's documentation for imported sawn wood - which wood was likely subject to the lacey act provisions - was mischaracterized as something other than sawn wood
    if that is found true and by intent, then it would appear gibson engaged in fraud to circumvent the lacey act provisions

    Yes we will. The only court case I've been able to document is that Gibson is asking the court to return the material they took in 2009. It's my understanding that the case is due in court very soon.
    then gibson will be provided an opportunity to prove your position correct ...
    i look forward to seeing if that is the actual result

    You accusing others of hypocrisy provided my laugh for the morning.
    your casting of insults while also complaining about being on the receiving end of insults was factually found to have been hypocritical
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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