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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #171
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Gibson and their allies are not going down without a fight. I hope Obama sees him and realizes who he is.



    It is obvious that the justice dept. is interpreting an Indian law differently than the Indian government is. The wood obtained by Gibson is certified by the Forest Stewardship Council as having been legally harvested. It appears that the wood would be ok if Gibson contracted to an Indian company to have it finished then shipped to Gibson for installation.

    Sounds like a good way to increase American employment to me.
    The only thing thats obvious is that your posts have no basis in reality. You have consistently mistated the facts
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Several sources cite a US Department of Justice civil suit filed against Nashville-based Gibson Guitar, for violating the Lacey Act, which prohibits trade in wildlife, fish, plants – and endangered ebony and rosewoods from Madagascar. The DOJ filing reads:

    “Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood.”
    Docket #?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A civil case does not preclude separate criminal charges. I have quoted a federal agent that said charges are forthcoming. Try to keep your pants on until then.
    A civil case does not guarantee a criminal charge either... of which there is no criminal charge still - and I doubt a civil court case either. You're "preclude" is a very nice strawman.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post

    The exception being that if the court sees evidence in which to lay criminal charges during the case, then a person can face criminal charges for that crime....

    But really, you'd think if they are going to raid a place that they at least have the evidence to generate criminal charges... or that there's a REASON to believe that a person is armed and or dangerous. But, this situation is BS, and especially claiming the Lacey act and agenda 21.

    They have to use both to even ATTEMPT to pass it off as illegal, because the Lacey act IS only violated by using agenda 21 that says that nations laws apply across nations in circumstances... so, because it's illegal for non-indian gibson workers to take raw wood products and to manufacture the wood, that law applies to the US because of the dealings with the source companies. The catch is, their law is ONLY MEANT TO APPLY in INDIA.
    Yes, but the DOJ seems to want to apply Indian law in the United States. I'm still not convinced there is a civil suit pending since I've found (nor has anyone else posted) a case # or docket # against Gibson. What's more interesting is that Fender and other guitar makers also purchase their woods from the same places yet they haven't been raided at all.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Docket #?

    A civil case does not guarantee a criminal charge either... of which there is no criminal charge still - and I doubt a civil court case either. You're "preclude" is a very nice strawman.
    Thanks for your opinion. I prefer facts myself:

    "The government has not yet released a statement to the public on the case, but the affidavit filed to obtain the search warrants has been unsealed and is circulating (ref: “Affidavit in Support of Search Warrant #11-MJ-1067 A,B,C,D”). The facts referred to below are based on information contained in this affidavit. The Environmental Investigation Agency urges the FWS to issue further statements in order to help calm the confusion and concern generated among many companies and individuals in the musical instruments industry, other businesses and the media.

    The Lacey Act violation in question concerns Gibson’s import of pieces of rosewood and ebony that the government alleges to have been falsely declared both during export from India and during import to the U.S. The sawnwood in question had been exported from India under an incorrect tariff code (HS 9209), allegedly to avoid the Indian government’s prohibition on export of sawnwood products (HS 4407); and had been declared upon import as veneer (HS 4408). The affidavit states that this description “fraudulently presents as a shipment that would be legal to export from India, and, in turn, would not be a violation of the Lacey Act.” According to the affidavit, discrepancies among the paperwork accompanying the shipment suggest that the recipients knew they were purchasing sawnwood."

    Background: the Lacey Act and the Fish & Wildlife Service raid on Gibson Guitars
    Last edited by Catawba; 09-07-11 at 08:31 PM.
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thanks for your opinion. I prefer facts myself:
    Then what's the docket # for the civil case? Just to be clear - I'm not looking for a statement to the public from the government about the case, I want the case number. You know... when there's a lawsuit issued in this country it's assigned a court case # and then is put on the docket with a judge. Since you're into facts... what's the case # or docket #?

    When you don't provide one... I'll know your facts are just more opinion... and I really don't care about your opinion so I won't thank you for it.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Then what's the docket # for the civil case? Just to be clear - I'm not looking for a statement to the public from the government about the case, I want the case number. You know... when there's a lawsuit issued in this country it's assigned a court case # and then is put on the docket with a judge. Since you're into facts... what's the case # or docket #?

    When you don't provide one... I'll know your facts are just more opinion... and I really don't care about your opinion so I won't thank you for it.
    This is why you have been unable to find a docket #:

    "Nicholas Chavez, a New Mexico-based Fish and Wildlife Service agent, said investigators also presented a criminal case to the Justice Department after the 2009 raid. While no charges have yet to be filed, federal prosecutors in Nashville recently asked a judge to temporarily suspend the civil case while a criminal investigation is pursued."
    Gibson Guitar chief denies wrongdoing after raids | The Tennessean | tennessean.com
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Yes, but the DOJ seems to want to apply Indian law in the United States. I'm still not convinced there is a civil suit pending since I've found (nor has anyone else posted) a case # or docket # against Gibson. What's more interesting is that Fender and other guitar makers also purchase their woods from the same places yet they haven't been raided at all.
    Ya, and the CEO of Fender happens to be a big Obama contributor. Kinda like how GE and the other Obama contributors landed money from the bailouts.

    They probably realized after the raid that they didn't have anything to actually pursue, but were already committed to ruining this american business. God forbid anything productive be allowed to carry on in the US... the only thing floating the US economy as it is is that the world must use the dollar as a world reserve currency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This is why you have been unable to find a docket #:

    "Nicholas Chavez, a New Mexico-based Fish and Wildlife Service agent, said investigators also presented a criminal case to the Justice Department after the 2009 raid. While no charges have yet to be filed, federal prosecutors in Nashville recently asked a judge to temporarily suspend the civil case while a criminal investigation is pursued."
    Gibson Guitar chief denies wrongdoing after raids | The Tennessean | tennessean.com
    Oh, I get it so, now in the land of the free you are guilty until proven innocent. That's a good policy to start.

    And someone said the term "draconian" was too nebulous, but the term suits, being as this is an unusually severe enforcement of the laws... which aren't even laws in the country in which these laws are being pursued.

    So, what do you say the limits should be to this new process of law enforcement in america?? Sharia law is law in some countries, so does that mean that we in America now must follow sharia law because we have to be accepting of other cultures (or whatever banal justification is actually used)?? Would that suit your grand-children?? Hey, good idea, creating a situation where a country is no longer sovereign enough to decide on it's own laws, but instead we gotta go be "internationally" recognized laws...

    You DO realize that MOST countries in the world are NOT free in the sense that we think of america as a free country, right? So, unless you think prefer concepts like slavery or serfdom over concepts of "freedom" and "self-determination", you should be just as concerned over the potential legal precedences that could be set with this case.

    So, again, the loss of a few trees is really a secondary issue when put in the scope of what this case can mean for the future of american society.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Ya, and the CEO of Fender happens to be a big Obama contributor. Kinda like how GE and the other Obama contributors landed money from the bailouts.

    They probably realized after the raid that they didn't have anything to actually pursue, but were already committed to ruining this american business. God forbid anything productive be allowed to carry on in the US... the only thing floating the US economy as it is is that the world must use the dollar as a world reserve currency.



    Oh, I get it so, now in the land of the free you are guilty until proven innocent. That's a good policy to start.

    And someone said the term "draconian" was too nebulous, but the term suits, being as this is an unusually severe enforcement of the laws... which aren't even laws in the country in which these laws are being pursued.

    So, what do you say the limits should be to this new process of law enforcement in america?? Sharia law is law in some countries, so does that mean that we in America now must follow sharia law because we have to be accepting of other cultures (or whatever banal justification is actually used)?? Would that suit your grand-children?? Hey, good idea, creating a situation where a country is no longer sovereign enough to decide on it's own laws, but instead we gotta go be "internationally" recognized laws...

    You DO realize that MOST countries in the world are NOT free in the sense that we think of america as a free country, right? So, unless you think prefer concepts like slavery or serfdom over concepts of "freedom" and "self-determination", you should be just as concerned over the potential legal precedences that could be set with this case.

    So, again, the loss of a few trees is really a secondary issue when put in the scope of what this case can mean for the future of american society.

    What it means is simply that if you don't contribute to Obama, or use union labor, then the DoJ brown shirts might come knocking.

    J-mac
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What it means is simply that if you don't contribute to Obama, or use union labor, then the DoJ brown shirts might come knocking.

    J-mac
    Or, that Gibson has been breaking the law and the other guitar manufacturers have been following the law.
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Or, that Gibson has been breaking the law and the other guitar manufacturers have been following the law.
    Even when everyone gets the wood from the same supplier going through the same certification process??? You are kinda naive as well to think people might get favors / punished for political reasons.

    Now, if we were talking about a fortune 100 company doing this, then that would be a different story, and in all likelihood they would not be getting punished except maybe a slap on the wrist... like a 2 million dollar fine on a 2 BILLION dollar crime.

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