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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Ya, you've never seen an injustice performed in the name of the environment that you didn't love, so we'll weight your sarcasm accordingly.
    Are you pro-trafficking of endangered species?
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Are you pro-trafficking of endangered species?
    That's a secondary issue... I mean, who is more at fault, the person BUYING wood that was labelled fraudulently, or the person SELLING the wood??

    What's more, the wood WAS certified, it was wood that had fallen dead and NOT cut down, the reason why it was a violation of the lacey act had to do with the fact that Gibson was WORKING the wood, which in INDIA (the source of the wood is madagascar, the company selling is from india, let's be clear on this much) is illegal to have non-indians manufacturing goods from wood.

    SO, the only law violated is that they were not aware of this law, which India considers the law valid only within their country. (It's pretty ridiculous that they would sell wood KNOWING that the company buying cannot possibly do anything with it... doesn't lead to alot of repeat business). Furthermore, the other major guitar makers in the US ALSO get their wood FROM THE SAME SOURCES, but because the main competitor is a large Obama contributor you won't be seeing them get raided anytime soon.

    This is YET ANOTHER examples of environmentalists attempting to do something "good" that just blows up in everybody's face... (remember the push for ethanols?? Hint : Using food for fuel boost the price of food to the point where millions went from a subsistence level to a starvation level existence, and millions more went from starvation level existence to dead.)

    Yes, I understand the need to protect nature, but really, let's handle things in an even-handed and level-headed fashion, and not these gestapo like tactics, it's seriously over-the-top.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    That's a secondary issue... I mean, who is more at fault, the person BUYING wood that was labelled fraudulently, or the person SELLING the wood??

    What's more, the wood WAS certified, it was wood that had fallen dead and NOT cut down, the reason why it was a violation of the lacey act had to do with the fact that Gibson was WORKING the wood, which in INDIA (the source of the wood is madagascar, the company selling is from india, let's be clear on this much) is illegal to have non-indians manufacturing goods from wood.
    No, it is the primary issue, it was the reason for the raid. As I documented in post #142, "Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood."

    What makes you think you know the wood was certified?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, it is the primary issue, it was the reason for the raid. As I documented in post #142, "Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood."
    Ya, I'm aware, and it's because of agenda 21 that created the violation of the Lacey act. I say it's secondary because the handling of this issue was way over the top, this is continuation of an agenda to attack small business and entrepreneurship.

    Well, either the wood was documented and he is the victim of a fraud, or he's not a good businessman to cut corners legally and HOPE to not be caught.


    What makes you think you know the wood was certified?
    A company like that has lawyers guiding their every action, I don't see that there would be that kind of risk taking. Gibson is a small company that's very successful, companies like that generally cannot take very many hits like this.

    That said, he COULD still be guilty, that much is for the courts to decide, but this doesn't change that this law was interpreted in a very draconian way.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Ya, I'm aware, and it's because of agenda 21 that created the violation of the Lacey act. I say it's secondary because the handling of this issue was way over the top, this is continuation of an agenda to attack small business and entrepreneurship.

    Well, either the wood was documented and he is the victim of a fraud, or he's not a good businessman to cut corners legally and HOPE to not be caught.




    A company like that has lawyers guiding their every action, I don't see that there would be that kind of risk taking. Gibson is a small company that's very successful, companies like that generally cannot take very many hits like this.
    And yet, in spite of all those lawyers guiding their every action, Gibson had engaged in this illegal behavior before. It take an incredible amount of naivete, or more likely disingenousity, to claim that business won't engage in illegal behavior

    That said, he COULD still be guilty, that much is for the courts to decide, but this doesn't change that this law was interpreted in a very draconian way.
    That claim of "draconian" is so nonsensical that even you can't back it up by stating how a law that says its' illegal to import this wood is "draconian" when used against a corp that imported this wood illegally
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Here is my take on this:

    1) Ebony is an endangered wood.

    2) Therefore, by law, we cannot purchase ebony from Africa.

    3) But Gibson did not purchase ebony from Africa. They purchased it from India. They broke no law.

    4) The government is full of idiots. The government is full of idiots. Yes, this beared repeating.

    Here is my solution - Gibson should stop manufacturing fretboards with their wood. Instead, they should manufacture baseball bats for a few weeks, and hand them out to musicians, who will gladly use them on government officials.
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    But Gibson did not purchase ebony from Africa. They purchased it from India. They broke no law.

    "Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post

    "Andrea Johnson, director of forest programs for the Environmental Investigation Agency in Washington, says the Lacey Act requires end users of endangered wood to certify the legality of their supply chain all the way to the trees. EIA's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood."
    Darn those pesky facts!!
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Darn those pesky facts!!
    Gibson and their allies are not going down without a fight. I hope Obama sees him and realizes who he is.

    Two weeks after his company was raided by federal agents — for the second time in two years — Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz will be a guest at President Obama’s address to a joint session of Congress Thursday.

    In a statement released this afternoon, Republican U.S. Rep. Marsha Blackburn said Juszkiewicz will be her “special guest.”

    “Gibson Guitar is at the heart of this jobs debate, and is an example of exactly why President Obama has it wrong when it comes to getting our economy back on track,” Blackburn said in a statement. “Maybe if the President spent more time finding real solutions to empowering small business owners and less time hindering businesses like Gibson, we'd see more new jobs being created.
    It is obvious that the justice dept. is interpreting an Indian law differently than the Indian government is. The wood obtained by Gibson is certified by the Forest Stewardship Council as having been legally harvested. It appears that the wood would be ok if Gibson contracted to an Indian company to have it finished then shipped to Gibson for installation.

    Sounds like a good way to increase American employment to me.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Gibson and their allies are not going down without a fight. I hope Obama sees him and realizes who he is.



    It is obvious that the justice dept. is interpreting an Indian law differently than the Indian government is. The wood obtained by Gibson is certified by the Forest Stewardship Council as having been legally harvested. It appears that the wood would be ok if Gibson contracted to an Indian company to have it finished then shipped to Gibson for installation.

    Sounds like a good way to increase American employment to me.
    The only thing that is obvious from your posts is that you have no knowledge with which to base your uneducated opinions. I would suggest you wait for more facts to come out, but, I know from past experience that will not stop you, so continue to rant away and roll your eyes if it makes you feel better!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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