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Thread: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

  1. #151
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am not familiar with all the detail of the case against Gibson. Perhaps they gave them a break, perhaps they didn't have enough evidence to place charges. Are you betting they don't place charges this time?
    yeah, that's probably a purdy safe bet. You be sure and let us know when they charge them with something.
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Here is further info about the case:

    "In June 2011, the United States Department of Justice filed a civil case against Gibson, stating: "Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood." The filing also made mention of internal emails from 2008 and 2009 that discussed ebony species from Madagascar and plans to harvest it.[18][19] The case against Gibson Guitar was the first under the amended Lacey Act, which requires importing companies to purchase legally harvested wood and follow the environmental laws of the producing countries regardless of corruption or lack of enforcement.[19]"

    "
    The charges against the company constitute a felony, and if proven, the company could face large fines and the executives involved could face jail terms."
    Gibson Guitar Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  3. #153
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    Constitutional rights applies to everyone as individuals and corporations, this is how understand, Although I am not a lawyer but the constitution was written for any citizen to understand. I am being consistent, if a man is caught with the smoking gun in hand after a murder then you have probable cause to arrest and hold along with immediately being levied. If one is suspected of a murder without a smoking gun in hand then the state has yet to have proof or can not prove ones guilt, then one must be released until the actual charge with evidence can be justified.
    This may surprise you but every legal dispute does not lead to a constitutional issue. "Fed agencies are unconsitutional...", "Federal laws being enforced by the feds is unconstitutional", "Innocent until proven guilty" blah, blah blah..... It's getting boring

    In a civil case, either party can petition the court to put a "hold" of some sort on the other parties assets. Bank accounts can he "frozen", and assets can be sequestered.

    It happens all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Give us some examples of which Libbo politician that ran on a platform of less government regulation. I await with bated breath.
    Clinton in 1992 (welfare reform - "End welfare as we know it" and NAFTA) and 1996 (financial deregulation)

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    According to the honch as Gibson, he claims to have imported the materials legally and has the docs to prove it.

    Can you prove that he's lieing?
    And the jails are filled with people who swear they never did it

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Here is further info about the case:

    "In June 2011, the United States Department of Justice filed a civil case against Gibson, stating: "Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood." The filing also made mention of internal emails from 2008 and 2009 that discussed ebony species from Madagascar and plans to harvest it.[18][19] The case against Gibson Guitar was the first under the amended Lacey Act, which requires importing companies to purchase legally harvested wood and follow the environmental laws of the producing countries regardless of corruption or lack of enforcement.[19]"

    "
    The charges against the company constitute a felony, and if proven, the company could face large fines and the executives involved could face jail terms."
    Gibson Guitar Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Looks like someones' whining had no basis in reality
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  4. #154
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Here is further info about the case:

    "In June 2011, the United States Department of Justice filed a civil case against Gibson, stating: "Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood." The filing also made mention of internal emails from 2008 and 2009 that discussed ebony species from Madagascar and plans to harvest it.[18][19] The case against Gibson Guitar was the first under the amended Lacey Act, which requires importing companies to purchase legally harvested wood and follow the environmental laws of the producing countries regardless of corruption or lack of enforcement.[19]"

    "
    The charges against the company constitute a felony, and if proven, the company could face large fines and the executives involved could face jail terms."
    Gibson Guitar Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    There might be a slight flaw in the Gibson wiki write up, around the point that a civil case does not carry with it criminal felony charges. I could find no docket number for a criminal case nor could I find a filing for a civil case per that Wiki article, or, it may be that the two quotes you posted do not reference each other but reference different raids. As of today, the DOJ has not filed a criminal charges against Gibson.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    There might be a slight flaw in the Gibson wiki write up, around the point that a civil case does not carry with it criminal felony charges. I could find no docket number for a criminal case nor could I find a filing for a civil case per that Wiki article, or, it may be that the two quotes you posted do not reference each other but reference different raids. As of today, the DOJ has not filed a criminal charges against Gibson.
    Show me the basis for your assumption that a civil case precludes separate criminal charges? As referenced in the Wiki article (16):

    "Fish and Wildlife Service agent's affidavit indicates charges forthcoming."
    Federal agent: Gibson wood investigation likely to result in indictments | nashvillepost.com
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #156
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Show me the basis for your assumption that a civil case precludes separate criminal charges? As referenced in the Wiki article (16):

    "Fish and Wildlife Service agent's affidavit indicates charges forthcoming."
    Federal agent: Gibson wood investigation likely to result in indictments | nashvillepost.com

    First, there has to be proof there IS a civil case pending, which I can find no evidence that there is. Therefore your request is premature. Second, you quoted two different occurrances, the 2009 Madagascar case of the "misbegotten" ebony blanks, and the August 29, 2011 raid of woods from India. Third, a civil case doesn't carry with it criminal charges - a criminal case must be brought against Gibson - therefore your quote leads a reader who's not familiar with the case to believe;

    a. There's a civil case (there no evidence of one)
    b. That a civil case can result in a felony charge with jail time (which it cannot, only a criminal case can bring a felony charge)

    Note: The entire section you pulled the quote from is under review, cites no court cases, reference no docket numbers, etc.etc.etc.


    Therefore, it's bupkus. Which is par for the course in your posts. Call me when there's a criminal charge, until then your simply regurgitating misinformation.

    :
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    First, there has to be proof there IS a civil case pending, which I can find no evidence that there is.
    "Several sources cite a US Department of Justice civil suit filed against Nashville-based Gibson Guitar, for violating the Lacey Act, which prohibits trade in wildlife, fish, plants – and endangered ebony and rosewoods from Madagascar. The DOJ filing reads:

    “Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood.”

    Second, you quoted two different occurrances, the 2009 Madagascar case of the "misbegotten" ebony blanks, and the August 29, 2011 raid of woods from India.
    Correct.

    Third, a civil case doesn't carry with it criminal charges - a criminal case must be brought against Gibson
    A civil case does not preclude separate criminal charges. I have quoted a federal agent that said charges are forthcoming. Try to keep your pants on until then.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The great majority of criminals claim they are innocent. The investigation will determine if he is telling the truth, or not. We know the Court felt the evidence was sufficient for the raid. Who are we to second guess the Court's decision, and on what basis?
    Yes, but if he's got documentation to prove his innocence then he's really jumped the gun, and what are they going to do, spend a month and half a million in forensics to verify the origins of each piece of wood to make sure it's all accurate??

    But let's assume that Gibson is guilty, they make friggin GUITARS, it's not like "Gibson guitars and guns", or "Gibsons guitar and crackhouse". Seriously, they could have walked in the front door with 2 agents walked into the managers office, explained the situation and taken whatever actions from there. There's NO REASON to justify an armed raid like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    First, there has to be proof there IS a civil case pending, which I can find no evidence that there is. Therefore your request is premature. Second, you quoted two different occurrances, the 2009 Madagascar case of the "misbegotten" ebony blanks, and the August 29, 2011 raid of woods from India. Third, a civil case doesn't carry with it criminal charges - a criminal case must be brought against Gibson - therefore your quote leads a reader who's not familiar with the case to believe;

    a. There's a civil case (there no evidence of one)
    b. That a civil case can result in a felony charge with jail time (which it cannot, only a criminal case can bring a felony charge)

    Note: The entire section you pulled the quote from is under review, cites no court cases, reference no docket numbers, etc.etc.etc.


    Therefore, it's bupkus. Which is par for the course in your posts. Call me when there's a criminal charge, until then your simply regurgitating misinformation.

    :
    The exception being that if the court sees evidence in which to lay criminal charges during the case, then a person can face criminal charges for that crime....

    But really, you'd think if they are going to raid a place that they at least have the evidence to generate criminal charges... or that there's a REASON to believe that a person is armed and or dangerous. But, this situation is BS, and especially claiming the Lacey act and agenda 21.

    They have to use both to even ATTEMPT to pass it off as illegal, because the Lacey act IS only violated by using agenda 21 that says that nations laws apply across nations in circumstances... so, because it's illegal for non-indian gibson workers to take raw wood products and to manufacture the wood, that law applies to the US because of the dealings with the source companies. The catch is, their law is ONLY MEANT TO APPLY in INDIA.

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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Yes, but if he's got documentation to prove his innocence then he's really jumped the gun, and what are they going to do, spend a month and half a million in forensics to verify the origins of each piece of wood to make sure it's all accurate??

    But let's assume that Gibson is guilty, they make friggin GUITARS, it's not like "Gibson guitars and guns", or "Gibsons guitar and crackhouse". Seriously, they could have walked in the front door with 2 agents walked into the managers office, explained the situation and taken whatever actions from there. There's NO REASON to justify an armed raid like this.



    The exception being that if the court sees evidence in which to lay criminal charges during the case, then a person can face criminal charges for that crime....

    But really, you'd think if they are going to raid a place that they at least have the evidence to generate criminal charges... or that there's a REASON to believe that a person is armed and or dangerous. But, this situation is BS, and especially claiming the Lacey act and agenda 21.

    They have to use both to even ATTEMPT to pass it off as illegal, because the Lacey act IS only violated by using agenda 21 that says that nations laws apply across nations in circumstances... so, because it's illegal for non-indian gibson workers to take raw wood products and to manufacture the wood, that law applies to the US because of the dealings with the source companies. The catch is, their law is ONLY MEANT TO APPLY in INDIA.
    Thanks for your opinion!
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    Re: US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Thanks for your opinion!
    Ya, you've never seen an injustice performed in the name of the environment that you didn't love, so we'll weight your sarcasm accordingly.

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