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Thread: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

  1. #1271
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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I stand by my statement, it is what it is, your money going to someone else and someone else paying your SS check. That isn't insurance, that is the characteristics of a ponzi scheme.
    Do you disagree with this?


    <snip>

    More recently, Mitchell Zuckoff, a Boston University journalism professor who has written a book on Ponzi, noted critical dissimilarities between Social Security and a Ponzi scheme, which by definition is both fraudulent and unsustainable.

    "First, in the case of Social Security, no one is being misled," Zuckoff's January 2009 article in Fortune magazine says. "...Social Security is exactly what it claims to be: A mandatory transfer payment system under which current workers are taxed on their incomes to pay benefits, with no promises of huge returns."

    Second, he writes, "A Ponzi scheme is unsustainable because the number of potential investors is eventually exhausted. That's when the last people to participate are out of luck; the music stops and there's nowhere to sit. It's true that Social Security faces a huge burden and a significant, long-term financing problem in light of retiring Baby Boomers...But Social Security can be, and has been, tweaked and modified to reflect changes in the size of the taxpaying workforce and the number of beneficiaries. It would take great political will, but the government could change benefit formulas or take other steps, like increasing taxes, to keep the system from failing."

    <snip>

    http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...-ponzi-scheme/

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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    I never said there was (it was hypothetical), so could you please behave like a normal person engaging in a conversation and actually address a single question i pose to you.
    I understand the notion, I'm still waiting to hear why Paul Krugman is uneducated and said there was 16 trillion in bailout loans by the FED. A senator, economist, a GAO report, and you couldn't address the question I posed. Instead I got the "normal" response of I'm smart and you don't understand. So could you please behave like a normal person engaging in a conversation and actually address a single question i pose to you.

    A simple "I was wrong Mike" is sufficient.
    Last edited by Michael H; 09-09-11 at 03:51 AM.
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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Spending cuts mean less tax revenue going to fund the govt. and thus more money to the debt service and funding the IOU's. The govt. cannot create private sector prosperity and it is the private sector that is going to get us out of this mess. We need 25 million unemployed Americans back at work paying taxes and that isn't going to happen with govt. spending.
    The European Powerhouse called Germany suggests otherwise. Furthermore, your argument that government cannot create private sector prosperity basically ignores the entire defense industry not to mention the entire nuclear industry.

    Who wants to bet that Conservative is going to pretend this post doesn't exist?
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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    There isn't enough revenue to fund the 3.7 trillion dollar govt and the IOU's in SS/Medicare which is why we need massive govt. spending cuts and a growing economy that will grow revenue.
    How does dramatically reducing aggregate demand actually grow an economy?

    At least Boehner is honest in admitting cuts will increase unemployment. You have this crazy idea that killing demand will increase economic activity. And when challenged on this, you are completely unable to support your belief.

    Tell me, is Greece expanding leaps and bounds from its dramatic cuts?

    You must live one boring life with your nose stuck in a book all day long. I don't see a lot of street smarts, logic, or common sense in anything you post but I do see a lot of stats. Maybe you should get out and put some faces on those stats you throw around.
    You know, saying that kind of crap to someone who is discussing economics that you should have learned long ago is not a sign you can play in the big leagues. Complete failure to understand the notion of money multipliers and how interest plays a role in consumer behavior suggests you have no understand how how consumers make choices. Goldenboy is right, until we get inflation, we won't see money put to use. If you had any knowledge in this field, you'd know that times of low to no inflation, to the devil of deflation causes mass consumer cutbacks. Now, I shouldn't have to explain this, but that is bad for a consumer driven economy.

    We get that you do not understand the terms used. What is appalling to us is that you simply don't care enough to learn.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 09-09-11 at 03:54 AM.
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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    I never said there was (it was hypothetical), so could you please behave like a normal person engaging in a conversation and actually address a single question i pose to you.
    I have to say this. Goldenboy, you'd lost your rocker by asking him that.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    How does dramatically reducing aggregate demand actually grow an economy?
    It's because aggregate demand is a horrible analysis. Government doesn't know what people should be spending on, and it doesn't know the correct ratio of investment to consumption. If there is "not enough demand," then the problem is that the things that people want are not being made and the things that people don't want are. Allow production to adjust to consumer demand and then you'll get a robust recovery.

    At least Boehner is honest in admitting cuts will increase unemployment. You have this crazy idea that killing demand will increase economic activity. And when challenged on this, you are completely unable to support your belief.
    Short term versus long term.

    Tell me, is Greece expanding leaps and bounds from its dramatic cuts?
    Greece still has a debt crisis. They have not cut enough.

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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    It's because aggregate demand is a horrible analysis. Government doesn't know what people should be spending on, and it doesn't know the correct ratio of investment to consumption. If there is "not enough demand," then the problem is that the things that people want are not being made and the things that people don't want are. Allow production to adjust to consumer demand and then you'll get a robust recovery.
    That doesn't actually address my point. You seriously gloss over multipliers as if they do not exist. Sure government spends money in bad ways, but that money gets pushed down to consumers who then spend the money themselves. Dramatic cuts at the initial level will basically strip the consumers of their spending and cause massive waves of indirect cuts. While allowing production to adjust to demand over the long term will produce a recovery, that will result in likely a decade if not longer recovery in the context of deleveraging.

    Short term versus long term.
    True, over the long term assuming there is private sector demand to pick up the pieces over time. But Conservative has this asinine notion that swift cuts now will produce swift growth now. That is 100% certified crazy.

    Greece still has a debt crisis. They have not cut enough.
    Not necessarily. Greece still has a debt crisis for a number of reasons. They've cut enough. The bigger question is exports. The irony of Greece is that their debt issue largely stems from the government backing private loans to increase the size of Greece businesses to do exactly that. In the drive to build up Greek Commerce, they dug their own graves. It's a pity that government services are being axed to pay for the failure of Greece business.
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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    That doesn't actually address my point. You seriously gloss over multipliers as if they do not exist. Sure government spends money in bad ways, but that money gets pushed down to consumers who then spend the money themselves. Dramatic cuts at the initial level will basically strip the consumers of their spending and cause massive waves of indirect cuts. While allowing production to adjust to demand over the long term will produce a recovery, that will result in likely a decade if not longer recovery in the context of deleveraging.
    But this keeps capital in industries where it should not be kept. Like in construction. We can't ignore a distorted structure of production. Capital needs to be used where it is most efficient, and government expenditures necessarily make it less efficient.

    True, over the long term assuming there is private sector demand to pick up the pieces over time. But Conservative has this asinine notion that swift cuts now will produce swift growth now. That is 100% certified crazy.
    Agreed. I know of no economist clamoring for tax cuts who does not admit short term pain.

    Not necessarily. Greece still has a debt crisis for a number of reasons. They've cut enough. The bigger question is exports. The irony of Greece is that their debt issue largely stems from the government backing private loans to increase the size of Greece businesses to do exactly that. In the drive to build up Greek Commerce, they dug their own graves. It's a pity that government services are being axed to pay for the failure of Greece business.
    Have they cut enough? Because the debt is still there, isn't it? And you're right that backing private loans is a bad idea.

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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But this keeps capital in industries where it should not be kept. Like in construction. We can't ignore a distorted structure of production. Capital needs to be used where it is most efficient, and government expenditures necessarily make it less efficient.



    Agreed. I know of no economist clamoring for tax cuts who does not admit short term pain.



    Have they cut enough? Because the debt is still there, isn't it? And you're right that backing private loans is a bad idea.

    Greece has cut a large amount, the problem being with the economic decline associated with those cuts has been bigger then the cut in spending. Greek government spending accounted for a large amount of Greek economic activity, so the cuts from the government will have negatively effected the Greek GDP
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    Re: Employers add no net jobs in Aug.; rate unchanged

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Greece has cut a large amount, the problem being with the economic decline associated with those cuts has been bigger then the cut in spending. Greek government spending accounted for a large amount of Greek economic activity, so the cuts from the government will have negatively effected the Greek GDP
    Which with time will be a boon for the economy, but the debt is still not gone.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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