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Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?



Honestly, this is just a wild eyed white supremacist rant... Obviously none of those things are remotely true.

Get ****ing real.....

It can cost a company around 30- 40k just to make the call to "switch on" their legal department for a case.

That means if some dirtbag understands the system well enough, he/she can **** up and avoid getting fired by just offering to sign a paper saying they won't sue, the company ...and they'll be able to quit and walk away with a check for up to $40k. ...It's called "Mutual Separation".

And if you think that's ****ed up, they can put, the company down as a reference and if someone calls, the company....the company can't say **** except that person X worked here between these dates. All in the name of avoiding legal liability....
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

I'm supposed to counter something you just made up?

I didn't make it up. I keep posting the link to one of the studies- Discrimination in a Low-Wage Labor Market: A Field Experiment by Devah Pager, Bruce Western, Bart Bonikowski :: SSRN

If you have some evidence we can weigh against that, lets see it. If not, then that's that.

It isn't a court transcript. I post an actual example. You? Nothing.

Maybe you're misunderstanding my position. I am not saying that past discrimination can never come into play. It certainly can. A pattern of discrimination can be evidence in a discrimination case. But, it's hard to get evidence of a pattern of discrimination into the court record. Circumstantial evidence such as statistics about the number of people of a particular race is not definitive proof of discrimination. There are plenty of legitimate reasons that a company might hire very few of a particular race. So, you can't bring those numbers up in court because they might be prejudicial. People would perceive it as evidence that there is a pattern of discrimination even if there isn't really one. Courts are very careful about what they let juries see. You need harder evidence, such as they found in that case where the CEO basically admitted that they were doing it.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Get ****ing real.....

It can cost a company around 30- 40k just to make the call to "switch on" their legal department for a case.

That means if some dirtbag understands the system well enough, he/she can **** up and avoid getting fired by just offering to sign a paper saying they won't sue, the company ...and they'll be able to quit and walk away with a check for up to $40k. ...It's called "Mutual Separation".

And if you think that's ****ed up, they can put, the company down as a reference and if someone calls, the company....the company can't say **** except that person X worked here between these dates. All in the name of avoiding legal liability....

Not sure how that has anything to do with anything. Can you spell your argument out more?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

I didn't make it up. I keep posting the link to one of the studies-

No, you are making it up as you go. Your first arguement was that the two had the same qualifications. You then switched it to that white person getting hired even though the minority had better qualifications.

Maybe you're misunderstanding my position. I am not saying that past discrimination can never come into play. It certainly can.

It's nice to see you change your position to the factual one. The rest of your post is simple subjecture on your part to cover for your error.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

First off, the idea that it is the victim's responsibility and that the people committing these crimes should just be allowed to continue as is is morally abhorrent. Do you apply the same philosophy to other types of crime? Should we not worry about trying to stop rape and just tell women to be more careful?

Earth to "Out of Touch Liberal." Earth calling "Out of Touch Liberal," do you read, over. Hello. Hello. Is there any sentient life in "Out of Touch Liberal" land?

Freedom of association is not a crime, no matter how much liberals want to make it one.

You can't make employers undertake financially reckless hiring decisions. These are probabalistic decisions. They are unfair to the individual who is hit with a group characteristic, but there is the other side of the equation - an employer doesn't know which 10 of the 40 people he hires are going to be a bad fit for the company and end up costing the company money. Hiring people who don't work out is an expensive undertaking. Are you willing to pay all employers who have to fire employees who don't work out? You seem quite happy to force them to make unwise decisions in order to further the interests of the individual because you believe that the individual is paying a price for something that isn't his fault. Well the same applies to the employer - it's not his fault that there are observed racial differences in work-related characteristics and no one is stepping up to protect his interests.

You yourself have agreed with Becker's conclusion - irrational discriminators will put themselves at a competitive disadvantage when compared to their competitors who don't irrationally discriminate and thus just harm themselves. The problem will solve itself if employers are irrationally discriminating. If they're rationally discriminating then the outcomes that result are not their fault.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Earth to "Out of Touch Liberal." Earth calling "Out of Touch Liberal," do you read, over. Hello. Hello. Is there any sentient life in "Out of Touch Liberal" land?

Freedom of association is not a crime, no matter how much liberals want to make it one.

Uh, yes, racial employment discrimination is illegal... You've heard of the Civil Rights Act, no?

I'm just going to ignore all the openly white supremacist crap about how it is financially reckless to hire black people and whatnot... That is a serious emotional and intellectual problem you have there, but I'm not going to be able to help you fix it on some internet forum.
 
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Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Freedom of association is not a crime, no matter how much liberals want to make it one
Actually, discriminating based on race is a crime which is what teamosil is referring to. That's not really debatable.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Most liberals point out that discrimination exists as a barrier to success. Then people like you interpret that as "convincing a large portion of the black community that they can't succeed". What you don't seem to understand is that the main liberal argument regarding discrimination is that exists as a barrier to success. The argument is NOT that it exists as an unconquerable barrier to success - which is what you seem to think with your constant assertions that "Leftists" are telling blacks that they can't succeed.

Now the reason many liberals consider it important to point out racial discrimination is not to "convince people they can't succeed" or anything like that. The reason is that we see it as a tangible problem that can be eliminated in part by the government through things like equal access to quality education.

As long as you use it as the soul excuse for fewer successful blacks than successful whites, that's how it's going to be interpreted.

The biggest problem, is the denial that racism isn't the only reason for a lack of success within the black community and anyone that points that out is automatically labled a racist. It's become such a taboo to criticize the black community, that it's impossible for the black community as a whole to take a good honest look at itself. Michael Nutter said it perfect a few weeks ago in a speech to a Philly youth group, and so long as black continue to harm their race and Libbos make it impossible for anyone to point that out, for fear of being called a racist, the statistics that are in the OP will never change.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Actually, discriminating based on race is a crime which is what teamosil is referring to. That's not really debatable.

Really? Can you show me criminal statutes which declare this to be so?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

First off, the idea that it is the victim's responsibility and that the people committing these crimes should just be allowed to continue as is is morally abhorrent. Do you apply the same philosophy to other types of crime? Should we not worry about trying to stop rape and just tell women to be more careful?

As long as there are so many black people that go way out of their way to prove the stereotypes correct, it will be the responsibility of the victims to disprove that stereotype.

Second, success isn't binary. It isn't like you are either successful or not. It's a matter of degree. It could well be that you would have been more successful were there less racial discrimination.

There are way more factors that effect success than just race.

Third, even if your success was completely unaffected by discrimination, obviously that isn't the case for everybody. Just because you overcame it, we shouldn't worry about those who were hit harder by it?

Those people have a responsibility to themselves to advance their lives, despite any discrimination they might have faced. Sitting on the porch and boo-hooing about being black isn't the appropriate response.

What kind of work do you do?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Actually, discriminating based on race is a crime which is what teamosil is referring to. That's not really debatable.

Yeah, let's see where it's a crime. What kind of prison sentence does it carry?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

As long as there are so many black people that go way out of their way to prove the stereotypes correct, it will be the responsibility of the victims to disprove that stereotype.

To me what you're saying just sounds like some jackass saying that as long as some women dress slutty we shouldn't do anything about rape... It's beyond sick.

There are way more factors that effect success than just race.

Of course there are... Not sure what weight you think that has in our debate.

Those people have a responsibility to themselves to advance their lives, despite any discrimination they might have faced. Sitting on the porch and boo-hooing about being black isn't the appropriate response.

Nobody is proposing sitting around boo-hooing anything... Not sure where you get that angle from. We're talking about whether or not our society should fight against discrimination or not. You are arguing that it should not.... Right?

What kind of work do you do?

For about 10 years I ran the professional services departments in a couple different software companies. Then I got bored of that and went to law school a year ago.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

As long as you use it as the soul excuse for fewer successful blacks than successful whites, that's how it's going to be interpreted.
Neither I nor most liberals use that as the sole explanation for racial inequalities in work and education. This is how you wrongly interpret it often which is what I'm trying to explain to you. You should also learn the difference between an "excuse" and an "explanation". Racism is one of several explanations for racial inequalities in society. It is not an "excuse".

The biggest problem, is the denial that racism isn't the only reason for a lack of success within the black community and anyone that points that out is automatically labled a racist.
That's not true for many people. There may be some people who do that, but not the majority. In fact, even those who speak the most of racism - people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton - frequently talk about the problems with black culture.

It's become such a taboo to criticize the black community, that it's impossible for the black community as a whole to take a good honest look at itself. Michael Nutter said it perfect a few weeks ago in a speech to a Philly youth group, and so long as black continue to harm their race and Libbos make it impossible for anyone to point that out, for fear of being called a racist, the statistics that are in the OP will never change.
I agree some people are afraid to criticize "black culture" and I also agree that there are many problems within much of it that unsuccessful blacks have the power to change for themselves. Some of the biggest problems are the lack of emphasis on education, low voter turnout and low participation in government (local/state). That said, I refuse to accept the idea that liberals are the group who encourages and perpetuates the problems in black culture. While those who refuse to acknowledge problems within black culture do contribute, those conservatives who refuse to acknowledge institutional racism and discrimination contribute to the maintenance of those phenomena.

In short, I think it's important to acknowledge, study and find solutions for both aspects: culture and racism. I only have a problem with arguments that dismiss racism and its effects as real and influential problems in our society.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Actually, discriminating based on race is a crime which is what teamosil is referring to. That's not really debatable.

Many will debate that point. That's exactly what Affirmative Action does.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

To me what you're saying just sounds like some jackass saying that as long as some women dress slutty we shouldn't do anything about rape... It's beyond sick.

What exactly is the solution to rape then? When a rape occurs you have to have reasonable suspicion to investigate. The police gather evidence. The prosecutor decides whether to indict. A judge/jury decides whether to convict.

How exactly are you going to improve on that process?

You're exhibiting the classic liberal reaction here - DO SOMETHING. HURRY. DO SOMETHING. DO IT NOW. DO SOMETHING.

The same applies to the issue of discrimination. There is overt discrimination. The laws handle that just fine. What there is of covert discrimination is something that the law can't address. Or do you have a plan for handling covert discrimination, that is, discrimination which can't be proved?

Let's hear your plan. I'm really curious about what lurks in your deepest desires on this issue. How much of everyone's freedom are you going to shred so that you can engineer your equal outcome society. Please share with us what you think should be done.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Not sure how that has anything to do with anything. Can you spell your argument out more?

Many companies just won't deal with discipline issues that involves protected class employees. An employee who happens to have a file 2 inches thick (as an example a black female) would be "untouchable". Just forget any idea about pursuing corrective action against her.


A white male employee in a similar situation to what she was in, would have been immediately terminated and escorted off site by security.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Nope. There is no mention of discrimination being a criminal act.
Actually, the purpose of that entire page is to declare it a criminal act. This is seriously like debating whether or not the sky is blue. Are you from here? If not, here's an article about Abercrombie and Fitch where they had to pay $50 million in part because of discriminating based on race during the hiring process.

The lawsuit was brought by nine young people who were either sacked or refused sales jobs allegedly on the basis of race. Anthony Ocampo, a Stanford graduate, was told he could not be hired because “there’s already too many Filipinos.”

Abercrombie & Fitch pays $50m in racial discrimination case - Times Online
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

There's equal oppurtunity for anyone--regardless of race, or sex--with the gonads to go out and get it.

I did it and the Libbos on this forum constantly claim that I'm stupid, so I reckon it can't be that difficult.

So you are the standard for 300 plus million people all over the nation? Amazing!!!!!
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

It's pretty simple stuff were talking about here. This is starting to degenerate now that we've led you through the hoops with the simple logic of affirmative action. Somehow you can't afford to accept it because it must mean were calling you racist, or some other sandbox kiddie pool boo-hoo bull****.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

yup, and the asian guy is more likely to get the job than the white guy, and he's also more likely to be successful at it (which is perhaps why he is more likely to get it in the first place). when folks start worrying about how the Korean Man is Holding White Folk Down, i'll at least be willing to give them credit for consistency.



this line of reasoning is one giant "does not follow", but this is worth especially noting. even the state you bring up is not jobs but interviews.


want to know what's really hurting blacks? single parenthood and a failed approach to education. let's focus on solving that before we worry about interview parity.
How about a doo-rag and pants falling off your ass. Talk about creating an interviewer attitude problem.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

How exactly are you going to improve on that process? ...

The same applies to the issue of discrimination. There is overt discrimination. The laws handle that just fine. What there is of covert discrimination is something that the law can't address. Or do you have a plan for handling covert discrimination, that is, discrimination which can't be proved?

Let's hear your plan.

There are lots of things that could be done. On the broadest level the most important thing we could do would be to tackle poverty in general head on. Thicker safety net, free college, better public schools, more job programs, etc. Reducing poverty indirectly reduces a lot of the factors that prop up discrimination.

For employment discrimination directly, there are two tools for fighting it- discrimination suits and affirmative action. For discrimination suits a few things would help. First, reduce the pleading standards. At present you basically need to be able to prove that discrimination occurred before you can even pass the pleading stage, so you can't do discovery. Most often, without doing discovery you can't prove it, so its a catch-22. The standard should allow at least limited discovery on the basis of evidence that even suggests that maybe discrimination occurred. If they don't find anything during discovery, dismiss it then, not before. Second, statistical evidence of discrimination by that employer should be admissible. Third, in my opinion, the individual who discriminated should face jail time, not just a criminal fine or civil damages from the employer.

For affirmative action, again, the goal is not ever to hire a less qualified person because of their race, and I would not suggest that we start doing that. Instead, first, I would push for more extensive review of the explanations employers give. Presently if an employer just claims that less members of the under represented group were qualified, the government just takes them at their word. IMO the EEOC should have the discretion and budget to conduct full investigations to verify that claim in the more egregious cases. For example, they could review the resumes submitted and see if the explanation is obviously false. Second, as soon as it is discovered that there was discrimination going on, fines should kick in in addition to the training requirements. Third, AA should be extended to all employers, or at least all employers over a certain size, not just those that do work for the government.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Many companies just won't deal with discipline issues that involves protected class employees. An employee who happens to have a file 2 inches thick (as an example a black female) would be "untouchable". Just forget any idea about pursuing corrective action against her.

A white male employee in a similar situation to what she was in, would have been immediately terminated and escorted off site by security.

So you're saying that employers discriminate against black employees because they fear lawsuits. That may be true. It still certainly doesn't make it legal or moral though, and a white employee could do exactly the same thing- sue with no case and settle. So the misunderstandings or stereotypes that may make some employers imagine that hiring a black person is legally riskier are no excuse for discrimination.
 
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