Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

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cpwill said:
this line of reasoning is one giant "does not follow", but this is worth especially noting. even the state you bring up is not jobs but interviews.

How do you get a job without getting an interview? Not sure what you think your point is there... Focus on the topic- imagine it were you instead of black people that was being denied these interviews because of the color of your skin despite being as qualified for them as anybody who applied. You would not have gotten 3/5 of the interviews that led to you getting jobs in your life, so you wouldn't have gotten 3/5 of those jobs. What impact would that have had on you? I think that's the key to this whole thing- thinking through how it would look from the shoes of the victims.

cpwill · Sep 3, 2011

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teamosil said:
How do you get a job without getting an interview?

I apply for many interviews. I show up early, well dressed, i speak clearly and distinctly, and demonstrate solid work ethic. I've done my research, and I show up with a series of answers and statements that I have already worked through that I will use to explain how I think I can help the company. amazingly enough, these things are generally enough. If I don't get 3 out of 5 interviews, that's fine, because I have applied at 10 places, and that means I will get 4 interviews.

I think that's the key to this whole thing- thinking through how it would look from the shoes of the victims.

:shrug: I've been laid off, and I've been poor. I've been the only guy of my color in my workplace, and I've interviewed with white, black, and hispanic. Each time the answer was generally the same. show up early. work hard. be respectful and courteous. have a high standard for your work. enjoy the fact that this will cause you to get promoted above your peers.

ThePlayDrive · Sep 3, 2011

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cpwill said:
yup, and the asian guy is more likely to get the job than the white guy, and he's also more likely to be successful at it (which is perhaps why he is more likely to get it in the first place). when folks start worrying about how the Korean Man is Holding White Folk Down, i'll at least be willing to give them credit for consistency.

You keep talking about Asians as if they are interchangeable with blacks. You do realize that not all minorities are the same and talking about how Asians have higher success rates does nothing to counter the existence of racism against blacks? I can't even follow the line of logic you're using. You're essentially saying, "Since Asians are successful, racism against blacks is negligible." That's so illogical.

want to know what's really hurting blacks? single parenthood and a failed approach to education. let's focus on solving that before we worry about interview parity.

Black culture certainly has a negative impact on their ability to achieve success at greater levels. However, the negatives of black culture coexist with negative aspects of our society - including institutional racism. I've noticed that many conservatives and many liberals try to frame racial disparities as "one or the other". Conservatives who do this take the side that it all falls on choice/culture and liberals who do this decide that it all falls on societal inequality. In reality, it's a combination of two.

That said, when you deny that racism exists in our society to the extent that it does, you decrease the potential of society to decrease racial inequalities in education and the workplace. Put another way, there are two main aspects to continued racial inequality: culture and institutional racism. Institutional racism is the one that society has a tangible amount control over. However, we lose that control when we deny that it exists as much as it does - which is exactly what you are doing and which is actually what the Republican Party does as whole - which is why it will never have a stronghold on minorities.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

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cpwill said:
I apply for many interviews. I show up early, well dressed, i speak clearly and distinctly, and demonstrate solid work ethic. I've done my research, and I show up with a series of answers and statements that I have already worked through that I will use to explain how I think I can help the company. amazingly enough, these things are generally enough. If I don't get 3 out of 5 interviews, that's fine, because I have applied at 10 places, and that means I will get 4 interviews.

No, I think you're misunderstanding. First, how well you dress for an interview doesn't help you if you don't even get the interview. Second, it isn't that black people only get 2 interviews for every 5 jobs they apply for. That would be normal or even high for anybody. They only get 2 interviews for every 5 an equally qualified white person gets. So, that means 3 out of every 5 job opportunities effectively isn't available to black people. Obviously that would have a tremendous impact, right?

cpwill said:
:shrug: I've been laid off, and I've been poor.

I really don't feel like you're following. What would it be like if you removed 3/5 of the jobs you've gotten. Would you have been poor for much more of your life? Would you have been destitute instead of poor? Are you really contending it would make no difference? I can't believe you would actually think that. That would be insane.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

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teamosil said:
No, not at all. We live in a country beset by racism and racial inequality. A person has three options. They can support racism, they can oppose racism, or they can just try to ignore the whole thing. What you mean when you say they don't care about race is that they try to ignore the whole thing. The opposite of racism would be fighting against racism, which tea party types steadfastly resist.

That school of thought isn't going to achieve anything, other than convincing most black people that they have no chance, the deck is stacked against and there's no point in trying, because they're screwed from the git-go.

You're doing more damage to the black community--and the country--than racism ever could.

Renae · Sep 3, 2011

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The Tea Party doesn't give a rats rear about race, but those opposed to the Tea Party sure are mired in Race.

deltabtry · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

cpwill said:
I apply for many interviews. I show up early, well dressed, i speak clearly and distinctly, and demonstrate solid work ethic. I've done my research, and I show up with a series of answers and statements that I have already worked through that I will use to explain how I think I can help the company. amazingly enough, these things are generally enough. If I don't get 3 out of 5 interviews, that's fine, because I have applied at 10 places, and that means I will get 4 interviews.

:shrug: I've been laid off, and I've been poor. I've been the only guy of my color in my workplace, and I've interviewed with white, black, and hispanic. Each time the answer was generally the same. show up early. work hard. be respectful and courteous. have a high standard for your work. enjoy the fact that this will cause you to get promoted above your peers.

We have many people of different color and heritage where I work, and this is all we ask for and for those who go the extra mile do get promoted regardless of color or heritage. Make the company money and get rewards .

MKULTRABOY · Sep 3, 2011

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apdst said:
That school of thought isn't going to achieve anything, other than convincing most black people that they have no chance, the deck is stacked against and there's no point in trying, because they're screwed from the git-go.

You're doing more damage to the black community--and the country--than racism ever could.

He didnt say that at all... but then again who knows how your tinkerer works.

The Tea Party doesn't give a rats rear about race, but those opposed to the Tea Party sure are mired in Race.

Yes, we actually are just knee deep in colored people. Who wouldve thought!

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

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SE102 said:
He didnt say that at all... but then again who knows how your tinkerer works.

Actually, "black people ****ed, because of all the racism", is exactly what he's been saying throughout this entire thread.

Have you hear him say, a single time, "blacks can make it in the job market, in spite of the racism that exists"? I haven't.

MKULTRABOY · Sep 3, 2011

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apdst said:
Actually, "black people ****ed, because of all the racism", is exactly what he's been saying throughout this entire thread.

Rlly y downt yuo qwote dat 4 us?

Have you hear him say, a single time, "blacks can make it in the job market, in spite of the racism that exists"? I haven't.

Many do, theres alot of evidence that they experience more significant hurdles. I dont think he ever iterated that black people dont get hired at all by anyone in america.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

SE102 said:
Rlly y downt yuo qwote dat 4 us?

Many do, theres alot of evidence that they experience more significant hurdles. I dont think he ever iterated that black people dont get hired at all by anyone in america.

Oh! Now, that's what I want to see. Take your time. I look forward to seeing all those encouraging post. :rofl

MKULTRABOY · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

You too, can become president one day.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

SE102 said:
View attachment 67115447

You too, can become president one day.

So, I guess we can stop all the cry-baby bull**** about how blacks can't get ahead, because of all the racism in the country. It's been fixed. Nothing to worry about.

MKULTRABOY · Sep 3, 2011

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apdst said:
So, I guess we can stop all the cry-baby bull**** about how blacks can't get ahead, because of all the racism in the country. It's been fixed. Nothing to worry about.

Were going for that they dont get hired at the same rate as whites for the same qualifications. Not that they cant get ahead.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

apdst said:
That school of thought isn't going to achieve anything, other than convincing most black people that they have no chance, the deck is stacked against and there's no point in trying, because they're screwed from the git-go.

You're doing more damage to the black community--and the country--than racism ever could.

That makes no sense whatsoever... We shouldn't do anything to try to ensure that black people have equal opportunities because it might make them think they don't have equal opportunities? How about fixing it instead of just trying to pretend the problem doesn't exist?

ThePlayDrive · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

apdst said:
So, I guess we can stop all the cry-baby bull**** about how blacks can't get ahead, because of all the racism in the country. It's been fixed. Nothing to worry about.

But that's never been the argument. The argument is that discrimination exists.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

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teamosil said:
That makes no sense whatsoever... We shouldn't do anything to try to ensure that black people have equal opportunities because it might make them think they don't have equal opportunities?

That's not what you're accomplishing. You're actually ensuring that they don't have equal oppurtunites and there's no way for them to get ahead, without the help of the Liberal do-gooders.

How about fixing it instead of just trying to pretend the problem doesn't exist?

In the minds of Liberals, it's never going to be, "fixed". That's the problem.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

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theplaydrive said:
But that's never been the argument. The argument is that discrimination exists.

Sure it does, and not just against blacks. However, it's the responsibility of each individual to get ahead in spite of that discrimination. So far, the Leftists haven't done anything, other than to convince a large portion of the black community that they can't succeed, because they can't get passed the racism.

I decided a long time ago, that no one was going to have that kind of power over me; neither the racists, nor the do-gooders.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

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apdst said:
That's not what you're accomplishing. You're actually ensuring that they don't have equal oppurtunites and there's no way for them to get ahead, without the help of the Liberal do-gooders.

Explain. How do you think that happens? Is this just the thing where right wingers claim that by trying to solve a problem you draw attention to it and hence make it more real? That's just a silly right wing blanket excuse for not doing anything about anything, not a real argument. Obviously black people, like everybody else, are fully aware of racial discrimination. How could they not be? They encounter it personally...

apdst said:
In the minds of Liberals, it's never going to be, "fixed". That's the problem.

How about lets hold off on that discussion until a black person has the same odds of getting an interview as a white person with the exact same qualifications. Until then it is objectively broken, right?

MKULTRABOY · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

apdst said:
Sure it does, and not just against blacks. However, it's the responsibility of each individual to get ahead in spite of that discrimination. So far, the Leftists haven't done anything, other than to convince a large portion of the black community that they can't succeed, because they can't get passed the racism.

I decided a long time ago, that no one was going to have that kind of power over me; neither the racists, nor the do-gooders.

Yes, I participated in the door to door discouragement campaign. :roll:

1Perry · Sep 3, 2011

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teamosil said:
Our laws say that a business can't discriminate on the basis of race. AA and discrimination suits are attempts to enforce that. So the question is, how strong should that enforcement be?

It should be enforced. Period. Problem is, we should be charging companies that hire based upon AA as that is discriminating based upon race.

No, I think you're mixing up the details. An equally qualified white gets 2.4 times as many interviews as an equally qualified black. On average, black applicants are less qualified, so the actual ratio of interviews given would be much higher. I am not arguing that anybody should hire a less qualified person. I am arguing that the goal needs to be for equally qualified people to have an equal chance regardless of their race.

Sorry, AA says that you must hire the less qualified. If company A is not represented in their hiring compared to their area, find out why. If you find out they are not calling in minorities even though their qualifications are the same as whites, charge them. Make them go through training. Have those responsible removed if necessary. If you have to enact fines, go for it. All fine with me. To tell Company A that you have to hire X percent of minorities, period, is a racist program and one that should be discarded.

Yeah, of course- nobody should be guilty until proven innocent. Although, FYI, in a civil trial it isn't about innocence or guilt and neither side has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The standard is "preponderance of the evidence", which means whoever the jury thinks there is a 51% or more chance is right wins.

Which shouldn't be difficult if similiar minority applications are being discarded two and a half times as often as for whites.

I really don't get what your argument is with the Wal-Marts. Can you explain in more detail what impact you think that has on our debate?

It shows you how easy it would be to determine their might be a problem.

No, information about historical statistics about the races of people they hired is generally not admissible. Meaning they can't even bring it up. It sounds like you agree with me that that should change, right? If so, that's great. I think that would go a long ways towards fixing this stuff.

It can and is brought up. It's why charges are made many times.

Abercrombie & Fitch has a well-documented mission of selling its idea of youthful physical perfection, from the Bruce Weber ad campaigns to the employees that fit its ideal of American beauty. The company conceded that that ideal didn't include black, Hispanic, and Asian employees in 2004 when it paid $40 million to employees and job applicants of those demographics to settle a class-action federal discrimination lawsuit. They had been accused of "engaging in recruiting and hiring practices that exclude minorities and adopting a virtually all-white marketing campaign."

$40 million based upon past hiring practices.

American Beauty: A Brief History Of Abercrombie's Hiring Practices

By "CBC" do you mean the black caucus in Congress? If so, they aren't an employer, so none of this would apply to them. Are you saying they're a racist organization? If so, that's some really crazy talk.

LOL, they only allow blacks to join. White? Not welcomes. Hispanic? Not welcomed. Asian? Not welcomed. That is racism. Not just racism but the most blatent disgusting form of racism. It just shows that your concerns are not about racism. If it's wrong, it's wrong, period.

ric27 · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
Explain. How do you think that happens? Is this just the thing where right wingers claim that by trying to solve a problem you draw attention to it and hence make it more real? That's just a silly right wing blanket excuse for not doing anything about anything, not a real argument. Obviously black people, like everybody else, are fully aware of racial discrimination. How could they not be? They encounter it personally...

How about lets hold off on that discussion until a black person has the same odds of getting an interview as a white person with the exact same qualifications. Until then it is objectively broken, right?

Complete bull****

If you happen to be a white male you WILL be discriminated against. In the academic environment it's politically incorrect to be a white male. You will have to attend mandatory seminars and training designed to make you feel guilty. It's a ****ed up deal, but colleges and universities seem to get away with things like that. I don't know why. In the business world, it's kind of funny. If things are going well and your company is fat and happy, "Diversity" will end up becoming a tangible force in the workplace. In a sort of orgy of reverse discrimination, grossly unqualified people will be hired and promoted based on gender and skin color. Then if things go badly, the pendulum swings the other way.

That means that people who are "protected classes" can get away with just about anything they want to at work.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

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1Perry said:
It should be enforced. Period. Problem is, we should be charging companies that hire based upon AA as that is discriminating based upon race.

AA doesn't give any special protection for discrimination. All it does is allow companies to hire a member of an under represented group over members of the over represented group if they are equally qualified. But, if a company goes beyond that and discriminates on the basis of race under the banner of AA they can be sued just like anybody else. In fact they are. Constantly. By tea baggers.

1Perry said:
Sorry, AA says that you must hire the less qualified.

False. AA says that you can opt to hire a member of an under represented group over a member of an over represented group, but only if they are equally qualified.

1Perry said:
It can and is brought up. It's why charges are made many times. A company has a history of not hiring minorities.

Abercrombie & Fitch has a well-documented mission of selling its idea of youthful physical perfection, from the Bruce Weber ad campaigns to the employees that fit its ideal of American beauty. The company conceded that that ideal didn't include black, Hispanic, and Asian employees in 2004 when it paid $40 million to employees and job applicants of those demographics to settle a class-action federal discrimination lawsuit. They had been accused of "engaging in recruiting and hiring practices that exclude minorities and adopting a virtually all-white marketing campaign."

$40 million based upon past hiring practices.

Certainly a pattern of discrimination can be brought up, but you can't just show stats that they don't hire enough black people or whatever. That example is about the CEO flat out saying that they discriminate in their hiring. That certainly is admissible.

1Perry said:
LOL, they only allow blacks to join. White? Not welcomes. Hispanic? Not welcomed. Asian? Not welcomed. That is racism. Not just racism but the most blatent disgusting form of racism. It just shows that your concerns are not about racism. If it's wrong, it's wrong, period.

Are you serious about this one? You are mad that there aren't white people in the congressional black caucus? Seriously? That has got to be one of the dumbest things to have a hissy fit about I've heard in a while...

I assume your issue is the tired old "what would people say if there was a congressional white caucus", right? Well, that argument is obviously silly. 87% of Congress is white. If there are issues of concern to white people, those are being dealt with all the time by the overwhelming majority of Congresspeople. But if there are issues that are only of concern to black people, those aren't necessarily on the radar for the Congress as a whole, so they need a special group to consider them. They aren't parallel at all.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

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ric27 said:
If you happen to be a white male you WILL be discriminated against.

Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?

ric27 said:
In the academic environment it's politically incorrect to be a white male. You will have to attend mandatory seminars and training designed to make you feel guilty. It's a ****ed up deal, but colleges and universities seem to get away with things like that. I don't know why. In the business world, it's kind of funny. If things are going well and your company is fat and happy, "Diversity" will end up becoming a tangible force in the workplace. In a sort of orgy of reverse discrimination, grossly unqualified people will be hired and promoted based on gender and skin color. Then if things go badly, the pendulum swings the other way.

That means that people who are "protected classes" can get away with just about anything they want to at work.

Honestly, this is just a wild eyed white supremacist rant... Obviously none of those things are remotely true.

Henrin · Sep 3, 2011

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teamosil said:
Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?

Actually you are the one wrong. They are less likely to get the job because they are less likely to have the skills needed. What happens is people don't want to hire them forced are to hire. The problem you have is two fold, one the wages are too high and two the law doesn't actually force enough of them in. The first problem hurts more than it otherwise would and the second one just puts a stopper on the discrimination.