Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

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Wake said:

You said that racemongering doesn't divide people. That's your mistake. Own it.

You also said everyone is apart, even though there are many groups of people who share the same beliefs.

I want to understand your claims.

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No you don't, you just admitted that you're only here to get back at me for a perceived "attack" in ANOTHER thread. There's really no need to talk any further since you only engaged me for personal reasons. Another waste of my time.

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ecofarm said:

How could any member be? You (and Hat) post them most days. We are all well aware of what you consider racist signs and shirts. If someone wore a shirt, or made a sig, "Yup, I'm a racist... because haymarket says so"... you would claim it was undeniable proof that the person is, in fact, a racist and is using you and us gullible idiots to get away with saying it in public. The rest of us would laugh. There's a thread that proves this, however ridiculous that might appear.

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I challenge you to show posts from myself - let alone on an almost daily basis as you allege - of posting pics here of these things.

Lets see them.

When a person holds a hand made sign that uses the N word about the President - I take that as racism. Perhaps you are more forgiving of such transgressions.

When a person holds a hand made sign that shows a picture of the President as an African witch doctor with a bone through his nose - I take that as racism. Again, perhaps you are more forgiving of such transgressions.

When a persons holds a hand made sign that shows the President and it compares him to an ape, chimp or monkey - I take that as racism. Again, perhaps you are more forgiving of such transgressions.

When a person holds a hand made sign that accuses the President of wanting to enslave White Persons - I take that as racism. Again, perhaps you are more forgiving of such transgressions.

I strongly suspect that if I wore a T-shirt that said "I am a freedom killing Marxist" - and then on the back listed reasons why the far right perceives me as such, you and others would focus only on the front of it stating that it reveals truth in the disguise of satire.

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Haymarket, can the same argument then be used on the NAACP/Black Panthers/Al Sharpton/etc? Or do you think they are blameless? What do you think?

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Hugh_Akston said:

There's nothing factual in his "observations", that's the point. We've had thread after thread asking to see all of these "racist signs" that people who attend the Tea Party events supposedly carry. Each and every time, folks fall short of providing said proof. Just because there is a sign here or a sign there doesn't mean that the Tea Party is racist, not even remotely close. Should we label the entire left as being racist because the NAACP, the Black Panthers, the New Black Panthers, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and others support them? No, I didn't think so. I live in the deep south and I've seen blacks, whites, hispanics, muslims, men, women, young, old and in-between at the events I've attended. Are the majority of the Tea Partiers white? Yes they are, but just because they are mostly white doesn't mean that they are racist. By that logic, the NBA is racist against whites, the NFL is racist against black quarterbacks, FFA (Future Farmers of America) is racist, NASCAR is racist, Formula One is racist, the NHL is racist and the PGA is racist. The pathetic argument that they are racist because they are mostly white is lame at best.

Show me the members of Congress that want blacks to be hung from a tree. Don't tiptoe around it, either spell it out or drop it. This is nothing more than fearmongering, something I only thought the republicans were guilty of - :roll:

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the hanging from a tree expression being hyperbole was previously acknowledged
but what you want to pretend does not exist is the strong racist constituency within the tea party as it currently exists (in contrast to the one begun by Ron Paul's camp and co-opted by disenchanted republicans after the Obama election)
this article expresses it much better than i could: Michael J.W. Stickings: The Harsh Reality of Tea Party Racism
here are some salient excerpts (and i also encourage you to watch the resident video):

... the NAACP is right that there are "racist elements" among the teabaggers. "You must expel the bigots and racists in your ranks or take full responsibility for all of their actions," NAACP president Benjamin Jealous has said." Note that Jealous did not say that all teabaggers are "bigots and racists," just certain "elements." There's a big difference there, but the hostile defensiveness of teabaggers is telling: either they don't want to own up to the racism and bigotry of their own kind, out of ignorant denial or willful suppression of the truth, or they agree with it but are smart enough not to be so outspoken about their real views.

There is extensive evidence of racism and bigotry among teabaggers, much of it directed at President Obama. Like so many conservatives before them, the teabaggers may try to turn it around on their critics, claiming that allegations of racism are part of some nefarious liberal smear campaign, but they cannot escape the undeniable truth -- that is, undeniable for any reasonable person who lives in reality -- that there is an ugly strain of racism and bigotry in their ranks, a strain that taints the entire "movement."

Defenders of slavery, opponents of civil rights -- they were racists, not the victims of liberal propaganda. The same goes for the racists in the KKK and the neo-Nazi movement, just as it goes for the various racists in the Tea Party "movement." No, that "movement" isn't the KKK, and not all teabaggers are racist, but to deny the existence of widespread racism in the Tea Party "movement" is to deny a fairly significant element of what that "movement" is all about. ...

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it is there for anyone to see. all they have to be willing to do is look

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haymarket said:

When a person holds a hand made sign that uses the N word about the President - I take that as racism. Perhaps you are more forgiving of such transgressions.

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I take that as racism as well, and I have stated as such.

haymarket said:

When a person holds a hand made sign that shows a picture of the President as an African witch doctor with a bone through his nose - I take that as racism. Again, perhaps you are more forgiving of such transgressions.

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Not really racism. He is "African American" after all is he not (well at least 50%)?

haymarket said:

When a persons holds a hand made sign that shows the President and it compares him to an ape, chimp or monkey - I take that as racism. Again, perhaps you are more forgiving of such transgressions.

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So you were just as vocal about this type of racism when Bush was depicted the same way? Google "Bush monkey" and get back to me...

haymarket said:

When a person holds a hand made sign that accuses the President of wanting to enslave White Persons - I take that as racism. Again, perhaps you are more forgiving of such transgressions.

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That's not racism either. It's context you fail to get - yet again. Being dependent on a person/government is compared to slavery. Obama is for a much larger government than we have now (which is too big and has been for years). He wants government involved in everything at every level. Socialism to slavery is not that far of a stretch when you take into account the context.

haymarket said:

I strongly suspect that if I wore a T-shirt that said "I am a freedom killing Marxist" - and then on the back listed reasons why the far right perceives me as such, you and others would focus only on the front of it stating that it reveals truth in the disguise of satire.

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I personally would not. I understand sarcasm and irony. I can't speak for ecofarm, but I'm pretty sure he gets it too.

Care to comment on the videos I posted?

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Hugh_Akston said:

I disagree - KKK, NAACP, Black Panthers, etc...

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I don't see how those organizations (although including the NAACP in that group is odd to me) would contradict my statement. I said 95% non-racist. think that tehre are plenty of organizations that are 95% racist.

The Tea Party is not an organization, it's more of a movement. Sure, there are Tea Party groups who have formed, and one of the biggest kicked it's leader out for making racist statements.

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Fine, movement. I still seriously doubt that it is 95% non-racist. I'd believe a majority, sure, even as much as 75-85%, but 95% non-racist doesn't seem likely to me.

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justabubba said:

the hanging from a tree expression being hyperbole was previously acknowledged
but what you want to pretend does not exist is the strong racist constituency within the tea party as it currently exists (in contrast to the one begun by Ron Paul's camp and co-opted by disenchanted republicans after the Obama election)
this article expresses it much better than i could: Michael J.W. Stickings: The Harsh Reality of Tea Party Racism
here are some salient excerpts (and i also encourage you to watch the resident video):


it is there for anyone to see. all they have to be willing to do is look

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When you cite a source that refers to Tea Party folks as "teabaggers", all credibility is lost. I've shown that the racist elements at Tea Party events have been removed/expelled/confronted. Sorry, but you're not even remotely close to being accurate.

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Tucker Case said:

I don't see how those organizations (although including the NAACP in that group is odd to me) would contradict my statement. I said 95% non-racist. think that tehre are plenty of organizations that are 95% racist.

Fine, movement. I still seriously doubt that it is 95% non-racist. I'd believe a majority, sure, even as much as 75-85%, but 95% non-racist doesn't seem likely to me.

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How do you think a group called the NAAWP would go over? Do you think it would be viewed as racist? IMO, any group that pushes an agenda based solely on the color of one's skin is racist. We are Americans, not hyphenated Americans. It's time we stop separating ourselves with pre-fixes and start viewing each other as equals.

I've been to Tea Party events Tucker, and in the deep south. I've seen no racism whatsoever at these events. If it isn't here in the deep south, where is it then? Sure, there are a few here and there, but I have not witnessed any racists at any event I've been to.

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haymarket said:

Now it is you who are lying. I googled "racist tea party signs" and came up with bunches and bunches of stuff. If you hit IMAGES you can see all kinds of really racist material with Obama as a tribal witch doctor with a bone through his nose, signs using the N word, signs and shirts proudly proclaiming they are racists, Obama in a pimp outfit, lots of references to Africa, Obama with monkey and ape references and lots of other offensive and racist things.

Are my eyes seeing things?

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yep .. now google hate signs about Bush .. hmmm wonders what that makes your liberal Bast**ds then .. certainly no better then the tea party huh ??

MrVicchio said:

Isn't about time we moved past such vile, angry bull****?

Oh wait, I can't say that about the esteemed Rep. Carson, to criticize him, since I am a white male and tea partier, is racist.

Just reading that filthy dung heaps rant makes my stomach churn in disgust.

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Passive/aggressive...it cancels itself out, so you're probably better off taking a stand that means something.

T

he explosive comments, caught on tape, were uploaded on the Internet Tuesday, and Carson’s office stood by the remarks. Jason Tomcsi, Carson’s spokesman, said the comment was “in response to frustration voiced by many in Miami and in his home district in Indianapolis regarding Congress’s inability to bolster the economy.” Tomcsi, in an email, wrote that “the congressman used strong language because the Tea Party agenda jeopardizes our most vulnerable and leaves them without the ability to improve their economic standing.

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I applaud the Congressman for taking a stand, and for not weaseling out of it by apologizing a day later.

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Hugh_Akston said:

How do you think a group called the NAAWP would go over? Do you think it would be viewed as racist?

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Depends on the context of it's origins. The NAACP formed in a very, very different time in our country. Excluding it's historical context is folly, IMO.

IMO, any group that pushes an agenda based solely on the color of one's skin is racist. We are Americans, not hyphenated Americans. It's time we stop separating ourselves with pre-fixes and start viewing each other as equals.

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I don't believe that there is a uniform American culture, so the hyphens don't bother me much. I also don't think that acknowledging the cultural aspects of the hyphenation means that you don't view people equally.

I've been to Tea Party events Tucker, and in the deep south. I've seen no racism whatsoever at these events. If it isn't here in the deep south, where is it then?

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Many people don't proclaim their racism in public because it's not a popular position. And racism is not a uniquely southern thing. Not even close. Hell, I'd say Chicago has as many racists as any place in the south, if not more. And I have seen them here. I know a few that regularly attend tea party events, too. Sure, they say that they aren't racist while in the company of others, and you'd never guess it just by looking at them at these rallies because they don't advertise it.

Sure, there are a few here and there, but I have not witnessed any racists at any event I've been to.

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You not having witnessed them there doesn't mean they aren't there. There is still a lot of racism in the US.

Hell, I know a bunch of people who believe they aren't racist, but they are. My own grandmother is an example. She's absolutely terrified of black people. If she sees one, she automatically clutches her purse. She's racist as all hell, but she's completely oblivious to it. I make fun of her for it and she says "I'm not racist! I'm just cautious! You never know" And I say "Yeah, cautious around black people." she doesn't hate black people, she just discriminates against them. She believed the crap she was told when she was younger. I'm not going to change her just by pointing out that it's wrong. But she thinks that by not hating black people, she can't be racist. That's also incorrect.

I'm also sure my grandmother isn't unique in this. Nor is it only her age group that has these issues. I'm also fairly confident that more than 5% of any large group of people will be of this type. How much more than 5%, I cannot say.

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justabubba said:

but the tea party does not have much color ... unless we agree that white is a color

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Look at that sea of white faces. That whole movement is delegimitized by appealing to so many white people.




Let's all work at boycotting Stephen Colbert and his racist viewers for not enticing more black people to watch his show and attend his rallies.

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Pointing out racist organizations doesn't really counter, in any way, tucker assertion that taking any sizable grouping of people you're unlikely to find that 95% of them AREN'T racist.

I actually agree with him, in the way he is describing it. Yep, there are racists in the Tea Party. There's racists in the NAACP. There's racists in the Democratic and Republican parties. And on and on. And I don't think its unreasonable to think its above 5% of the group if you think on average more than 5% of the population is racist. I just don't see how there's some grand need for the Tea Party to root out its racist contingent on some kind of huge focused effort than its necessary for the NAACP to do it. Simply because the Tea Party is currently an organization doing more visable protesting, letting a more apparent image of its racists show up than the generalized memberhsip of the NCAAP doesn't make it any less or more racist of a group nor have any large need to "remove" them. Indeed, the only reason the Tea Party has so much focus on its "racists" is because its political advantageous for liberals to make a bigger deal of it than it is and tell them they need to "Deal with it" because....it'll make liberals happy who will continue to hate the tea party anyways?

The percentage of racists in the tea party is likely not much different than any other generalized political movement, grouping, organizatoin, etc...or even really most any group. Especially in the way Tucker describes, where someone who holds their purse closer when they see black people or when someone assumes a person is out to get them because the individual is white equals being "racist".

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Tucker Case said:

Many people don't proclaim their racism in public because it's not a popular position. And racism is not a uniquely southern thing. Not even close. Hell, I'd say Chicago has as many racists as any place in the south, if not more. And I have seen them here. I know a few that regularly attend tea party events, too. Sure, they say that they aren't racist while in the company of others, and you'd never guess it just by looking at them at these rallies because they don't advertise it.

You not having witnessed them there doesn't mean they aren't there. There is still a lot of racism in the US.

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Don't overlook all the liberal racists who swooned at the prospect of voting for a black man. According to exit polling Obama attracted more racists than he did McCain.

Hell, I know a bunch of people who believe they aren't racist, but they are. My own grandmother is an example. She's absolutely terrified of black people. If she sees one, she automatically clutches her purse. She's racist as all hell, but she's completely oblivious to it.

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Just like so many women are sexists but don't own up to it, right? Ever watch a woman walking alone on a college campus at night and a how she gets all nervous as a man approaches her from the other direction on that dark and lonely path? Many women become wary of him and prejudge him to be a threat. They DON'T KNOW that he is setting out to rape them. These types of women are bigots and should be shamed for their bigotry, right?

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Zyphlin said:

Especially in the way Tucker describes, where someone who holds their purse closer when they see black people or when someone assumes a person is out to get them because the individual is white equals being "racist".

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Exactly. And I'm using a very specific and valid definition of "Racist", the second one found here: Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Which is:

racial prejudice or discrimination

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That's the one that most people actually mean when they use the term.

If we were using the first, more stringant definition I'd say that 95% is possible, but I would doubt that number if it was based simply on what a person has personally observed at the events and not some more valid form of assessment.

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RiverDad said:

Don't overlook all the liberal racists who swooned at the prospect of voting for a black man. According to exit polling Obama attracted more racists than he did McCain.



Just like so many women are sexists but don't own up to it, right? Ever watch a woman walking alone on a college campus at night and a how she gets all nervous as a man approaches her from the other direction on that dark and lonely path? Many women become wary of him and prejudge him to be a threat. They DON'T KNOW that he is setting out to rape them. These types of women are bigots and should be shamed for their bigotry, right?

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got a link to that poll?

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

RiverDad said:

Don't overlook all the liberal racists who swooned at the prospect of voting for a black man. According to exit polling Obama attracted more racists than he did McCain.

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Why do you imagine that this is relevant to what I said?

Just like so many women are sexists but don't own up to it, right?

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Sure. I've met many female sexists.

Ever watch a woman walking alone on a college campus at night and a how she gets all nervous as a man approaches her from the other direction on that dark and lonely path? Many women become wary of him and prejudge him to be a threat. They DON'T KNOW that he is setting out to rape them. These types of women are bigots and should be shamed for their bigotry, right?

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You realize that your scenario is far different than the one I described right?

Probably not, because I've read enough of your posts now to know that you actually do qualify as racist based on the first definition found here: Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Hell, you admit it so often that I'd guess that you are even proud of those beliefs.

I do not know if you are prejudiced or discriminate based on the fact that you fit the first definition, though.

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liblady said:

got a link to that poll?

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I think he's going with the number of individuals who stated they voted for Obama because he was black, suggesting they were prejudice against white people based on the assumption that a black man would automatically be better for them or that a white man automatically would be worse for htem.

It'd be similar to suggesting that a white person would be racist if given a choice to date a black woman and a white woman and said he'd date the white women because she's white too.

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RiverDad said:

Just like so many women are sexists but don't own up to it, right? Ever watch a woman walking alone on a college campus at night and a how she gets all nervous as a man approaches her from the other direction on that dark and lonely path? Many women become wary of him and prejudge him to be a threat. They DON'T KNOW that he is setting out to rape them. These types of women are bigots and should be shamed for their bigotry, right?

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To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with prejudice. In many ways, prejudice is just a response to one's experiences in an environment and a matter of practicality. For example, the woman walking alone would likely walk closer to another woman at night than a man because she believes based on experience that the man is stronger than her and more likely to rape or harm her. Similarly, in the inner city, black men are more likely to commit crime, so many people would walk on the opposite side of a group of black men at night in the inner city. But then the deep South is known for violent racism against blacks, so a black guy might walk away from a group of white men at night down south.

The problem comes in when you take those ideas and take them into environments where they are unnecessary and nonsensical to employ - when you are scared of every black man, every white man, every man and so on in every environment and when you extend those prejudices beyond their reasonable and practical application thereby preventing yourself from getting to know people beyond their race, gender, etc.

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Tucker Case;1059767155 Probably not said:

you[/I] actually do qualify as racist based on the first definition found here: Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

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Actually, strangely enough I thought his statement was a good question...

If clutching ones purse when a black man walks by but not when white men walk by is racist becuase its "racial prejudice or discrimination".

Would not clutching ones purse when a man walks by but not when women walk by be a sexist act because its "gender prejudice or discrimination".

I actually thought it was a rather good question comparing two different situations where someone is performing an action based on the assumption that a person is more dangerous based singularly on a facet of their genetic code (be it skin color or gender).

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Tucker Case said:

Exactly. And I'm using a very specific and valid definition of "Racist", the second one found here: Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

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I'm going to nitpick here on the stress that you're putting on the word "valid." Appeal to dictionary doesn't automatically equate with validity. The ability to shape language is a pretty powerful tool and ideologues try to capture that high ground and shape debates by getting in front of word definitions and pulling society towards a goal compared to the other way that words and definitions achieve prominence which is from how they are used and the usage is pushed forward to the point that it is classified.

A very common ground level definition of racism is "one who dislikes a person, or hates a group, solely because of their race." This usage is not defined in the dictionary and yet it is widely believed to categorize racists from non-racists.

The ability to cast a wider net and make more people racists is seen as a powerful tool in shaping society towards a preferred direction. Using racist as a shaming word can get people to modify their behavior. So control of the language is a political act. When you equate validity with a political act, you're making a false equivalence.

Your grandmother thinks, I assume, that racists are people who hate people of other races. She doesn't think of herself as a racist because she doesn't have any hatred to blacks. You're condemning her as a racist because you agree with the political definition of racism being the observation of statistically significant behavior patterns observed within a group.

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theplaydrive said:

To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with prejudice. In many ways, prejudice is just a response to one's experiences in an environment and a matter of practicality. For example, the woman walking alone would likely walk closer to another woman at night than a man because she believes based on experience that the man is stronger than her and more likely to rape or harm her. Similarly, in the inner city, black men are more likely to commit crime, so many people would walk on the opposite side of a group of black men at night in the inner city. But then the deep South is known for violent racism against blacks, so a black guy might walk away from a group of white men at night down south.

The problem comes in when you take those ideas and take them into environments where they are unnecessary and nonsensical to employ - when you are scared of every black man, every white man, every man and so on in every environment and when you extend those prejudices beyond their reasonable and practical application thereby preventing yourself from getting to know people beyond their race, gender, etc.

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I think that you're making some very fine and subtle points here. The research that's been done on stereotypes has had a very difficult time finding anyone who believes in stereotypes in all situations and that they always apply to everyone who belongs to the stereotyped group. In your second paragraph, the point that I would add is that the boundary on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable is going to be a fuzzy line which is very highly context specific.

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Zyphlin said:

It'd be similar to suggesting that a white person would be racist if given a choice to date a black woman and a white woman and said he'd date the white women because she's white too.

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people dont think that a person can be "pro white" and not be a racist......im white and im not ashamed of it nor will i apologize for it and if they want to think im racist because i prefer to date or marry within my own race i believe they are the one with the problem......if i walk into a room to sit down that is divided and on one side its all black people and the other all white....im not going to lie to you..im going to sit down with the whites.......im sure some would sit with the blacks just to prove to everybody they arent racist

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liblady said:

got a link to that poll?

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CNN Exit Polls: 2008

Question: Race of Candidates Was the Most Important Factor

Obama voters = 58%
McCain voters = 41%

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Tucker Case said:

Probably not, because I've read enough of your posts now to know that you actually do qualify as racist based on the first definition found here

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Funny how those who shape the definitions of language have set themselves up as defining population geneticists and physical anthropologists as being racists by focusing their studies on the physical aspects of race.