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Thread: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

  1. #81
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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh_Akston View Post
    No, you fail to understand the meaning of the word racism. You also fail to understand the meaning of the words irony and sarcasm. But that shouldn't surprise me I suppose...

    Of the first 4 pages of the results, there is one racist sign and the inbred piece of trash can't even spell the word 'nigger' correctly. You see, the overwhelming majority (and I'm talking at least 95%) of Tea Partiers aren't racists. We don't like Obama because of his skin color (he is half-white after all), we don't like him because of his ideology, his stances on nearly every issue and his policies. We'd dislike Hillary Clinton every bit as much as Obama if not more.
    Then why don't you in your infinite wisdom and knowledge define it properly for me? I could have sworn I studied all this to get my two degrees in college and have fought against racism my entire adult life, but maybe in your vast education and even vaster experience you can add something that has been missing for me? How about it?

    Irony and sarcasm? Is that not the excuse Rush Limbaugh gives when he makes racist or sexist jokes that bomb and reveal him in all his ugliness? At least you preach from the same hymnal while prostrating yourself before that Right Wing altar with the other True Believers.

    Nice that have you taken it upon yourself to pronounces the tea party 95% clean. I wonder how you did that with any reliability of your own results? Its also nice how you decide you can speak for everybody else in that movement. Are you also then accepting responsibility for their transgressions?
    Last edited by haymarket; 08-31-11 at 05:40 PM.
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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I'm going to nitpick here on the stress that you're putting on the word "valid."
    You are correct. Valid was not the word I should have used. I should have said "legitimate" to encompass my meaning better without the risk of confusing people. while this is simply replacing the word with its synonym, it would prevent confusion for those who have difficulty discerning the correct definition for a word based solely on teh context. It is obvious that valid in that context could not refer to logical validity because it did not describe a logical argument, but if someone has difficulty determining the correct definition by context, I can certainly see how they'd be confused.

    My apologies.

    Appeal to dictionary doesn't automatically equate with validity.
    No. It prevents others from attempting to use equivocation as the fallacy upon which they base their arguments, though. And it also provides evidence that the definition being used by is a real one, and a consistent one instead of a made-up one.

    By doing so, it should prevent equivocal rebuttals by people who are unhappy about the real definition of the word. But as we will see, not always.

    The ability to shape language is a pretty powerful tool and ideologues try to capture that high ground and shape debates by getting in front of word definitions and pulling society towards a goal compared to the other way that words and definitions achieve prominence which is from how they are used and the usage is pushed forward to the point that it is classified.
    Misusing words doesn't change their meaning. Irony still doesn't mean coincidence just because people repeatedly abuse the ever living **** out of the word. The reason I cite the dictionary is to prevent people who are ignorant of the real definition of a word form believing their made-up definition is a legitimate definition. It isn't and it won't be until such time as it becomes a real definition which can be cited in a dictionary.

    A very common ground level definition of racism is "one who dislikes a person, or hates a group, solely because of their race." This usage is not defined in the dictionary and yet it is widely believed to categorize racists from non-racists.
    If it is not a dictionary defnition, it is not a real definition. Using it in your rebuttal is merely equivocating because you don't like the real definition of the word. My normal response ot peopel who don't like the definition of a word is "Tough **** if you don't like it. That doesn't make your arguments which use a fake definition any less equivocal."

    The ability to cast a wider net and make more people racists is seen as a powerful tool in shaping society towards a preferred direction.
    And the ability to pretend that the definition casts a much smaller net is a great way to try and use equivocation to avoid being accurately labeled a racist. simply put: If you don't like the definition because it means you are something you would rather not be, then tough ****. I'm of the belief that if a person is strong enough to hold views that can accurately be given a label they'd rather not have,m then they should have the balls to accept that label. If they don't have the balls to accept the label, then they shouldn't hold the views.

    Using racist as a shaming word can get people to modify their behavior. So control of the language is a political act. When you equate validity with a political act, you're making a false equivalence.
    I used the word valid correctly for that context. There is no false equivalence when the word is used correctly for that context and in a non-equivocal way (i.e. my use of the word did not change in the middle of my argument, because it was not a part of my actual argument, instead it was used as a description of one of my premises.)

    I also did not use the word "racist" as a shaming word. That's just something you made up. Perhpas because you are ashamed of your racism? I don't know, but I personally think you should have the balls to wear the label as proudly and as doggedly as you promote the beliefs that earn you the label.

    Your grandmother thinks, I assume, that racists are people who hate people of other races. She doesn't think of herself as a racist because she doesn't have any hatred to blacks.
    this is because she has a false definition of the word. Ignorance is no defense.

    You're condemning her as a racist because you agree with the political definition of racism being the observation of statistically significant behavior patterns observed within a group.
    Ah, the part in bold is where your strawman lies. I knew there's be one with you, RD. There always is. Accurately labeling someone something is not condemning them. That's your own imagination creating that thing. If anything,m her views, beliefs, and actions are what "condemn" her to that label. I am merely applying it accurately.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    This admission of yours simply devalues the word sexist to a level of meaninglessness. You're basically calling every woman a sexist if she is mentally aware of the fact that men have been known to attack women and she takes even the slightest precaution against such an eventuality.
    Your reading comprehension has failed you again. I said nothing which remotely resembled that.


    I'll go in the other direction and say women would have to be purposefully stupid to not be sexists in such situations.
    See the part in bold. It's important. teh situation is being judged. Not the person. therefore it can't be sexist.

    If the definition of the word diverges from how people understand the concept, then we shouldn't be labeling all these women as sexists, we should instead by taking the political agenda out of the word definition and allow the definition to reflect what people actually understand the word "sexist" to be.
    We should not change definitions of words simply because people are ignorant of their real definitions. We should instead seek to alleviate their ignorance. One way to do this is to cite dictionaries.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    I am glad he said it

    The PC crap that the liberals have to use to appease conservatives is annoying
    I'm glad he said it too. Makes him look like an idiot.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    If it is not a dictionary defnition, it is not a real definition.
    Hey Einstein, how do you think dictionary definitions appear? Do they come by messenger angels from god? Do they mysteriously appear on paper or on computer screen and then the editors of the dictionary just publish them? Why do different dictionaries have variations in how words are defined?

    Using it in your rebuttal is merely equivocating because you don't like the real definition of the word.
    The real definition? What does that mean? How dictionary editors define a word is a ideological/political/sociological/etymological process. Which of the following is the "real" definition?

    Merriam Webster


    1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    2: racial prejudice or discrimination


    Dictionary.com


    1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
    2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
    3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


    There are huge gaping inconsistencies between these two definitions. Merriam Webster doesn't allow for what Dictionary.com has as a stand-alone 3rd point. Merriam Webster defines racism as believing that race is the PRIMARY determinant of traits but Dictionary.com defines racism as believing in INHERENT difference being determinative. What they agree on is the focus on determinative and on the broad superiority-inferiority framing.

    If a dictionary definition is determinative, then how on earth can there be such wide variance in dictionary definitions? Which one is wrong?

    I also did not use the word "racist" as a shaming word. That's just something you made up. Perhpas because you are ashamed of your racism?
    Listen up asswipe, I don't hold racist ideas. Let's look at the definitions from the dictionary.

    1.) I don't believe that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities
    2.) I utterly reject the notion that there can exist an inherent superiority in a particular race.
    3.) I do not prejudge or discriminate solely on the basis of race.
    4.) I don't believe that there exist inherent differences between races and that these differences determine cultural or individual achievement.
    5.) I don't hate people because of their race.

    So, how do I qualify as a racist when I fail to meet the conditions specified in dictionaries? You see, you're invoking some peculiar definition of racism which is your own and not in the dictionary you quote, which captures the arguments that I've been making on this board. You and these dictionary editors are not conversant with population genetics nor physical anthropology and you're invoking some platonic ideals about race which diverge quite significantly from the genetic basis for race.

    Population geneticists are not racists. The work that population geneticists do is not racism. The same for physical anthropologists. The people in these fields have a better and fuller understanding of race than do the linguists and etymologists who work on the editorial staffs of dictionary publishers.

    this is because she has a false definition of the word. Ignorance is no defense.
    Go and apologize to your grandmother, you fool, you bad grandson. See definition #3 of Dictionary.com.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    People like Carson and Maxine Waters simply fear the Tea Party's political clout. It's just another page out of the playbook. All Conservative movements are branded racist. Whatever.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and you have still not told us why that congressman's observations should be found wrong
    therefor, i can only conclude that has statement is valid
    Are you saying this Congressman saw somebody say they wanted to string up blacks? Do you want to go that far to defend this guy?

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Depends on the context of it's origins. The NAACP formed in a very, very different time in our country. Excluding it's historical context is folly, IMO.



    I don't believe that there is a uniform American culture, so the hyphens don't bother me much. I also don't think that acknowledging the cultural aspects of the hyphenation means that you don't view people equally.



    Many people don't proclaim their racism in public because it's not a popular position. And racism is not a uniquely southern thing. Not even close. Hell, I'd say Chicago has as many racists as any place in the south, if not more. And I have seen them here. I know a few that regularly attend tea party events, too. Sure, they say that they aren't racist while in the company of others, and you'd never guess it just by looking at them at these rallies because they don't advertise it.



    You not having witnessed them there doesn't mean they aren't there. There is still a lot of racism in the US.

    Hell, I know a bunch of people who believe they aren't racist, but they are. My own grandmother is an example. She's absolutely terrified of black people. If she sees one, she automatically clutches her purse. She's racist as all hell, but she's completely oblivious to it. I make fun of her for it and she says "I'm not racist! I'm just cautious! You never know" And I say "Yeah, cautious around black people." she doesn't hate black people, she just discriminates against them. She believed the crap she was told when she was younger. I'm not going to change her just by pointing out that it's wrong. But she thinks that by not hating black people, she can't be racist. That's also incorrect.

    I'm also sure my grandmother isn't unique in this. Nor is it only her age group that has these issues. I'm also fairly confident that more than 5% of any large group of people will be of this type. How much more than 5%, I cannot say.

    Tucker, there was an article a few years back about how black cab drivers in some city didn't like to pick up black male passengers late at night, because they assumed they were more likely to get robbed by a black male than other races/genders. Does this mean the black cab drivers are racists?

    I think it means they are realists...

    Certain demographics commit more crime than others. Males 15-35 of any race commit more violent crime than any other category; black males 15-35 even more so. Older people of either gender and any race much less so; women of any age less so than men. It makes perfect sense to be more wary of certain individuals than others based on known probabilities.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I am sorry but I do not understand that comment one bit. Are you oblivious to the obvious racist signs and shirts at tea party events which have been reproduced on this site and others?
    Let's assume that every attendee of the tea party rallies had a racist t-shirt on against blacks. How does that translate into Republican Representatives wanting to lynch black people?

    How do make the connection?

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    Let's assume that every attendee of the tea party rallies had a racist t-shirt on against blacks. How does that translate into Republican Representatives wanting to lynch black people?

    How do make the connection?
    I do not think it is a direct connection where one leads directly to the other. I suspect - and this is only conjecture - the Congressman is bringing with him lots of baggage in the way of historical record, experience and other facotrs which give him a very negative outlook regarding the right wing.
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