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Thread: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Our laws say that a business can't discriminate on the basis of race. AA and discrimination suits are attempts to enforce that. So the question is, how strong should that enforcement be?
    It should be enforced. Period. Problem is, we should be charging companies that hire based upon AA as that is discriminating based upon race.

    No, I think you're mixing up the details. An equally qualified white gets 2.4 times as many interviews as an equally qualified black. On average, black applicants are less qualified, so the actual ratio of interviews given would be much higher. I am not arguing that anybody should hire a less qualified person. I am arguing that the goal needs to be for equally qualified people to have an equal chance regardless of their race.
    Sorry, AA says that you must hire the less qualified. If company A is not represented in their hiring compared to their area, find out why. If you find out they are not calling in minorities even though their qualifications are the same as whites, charge them. Make them go through training. Have those responsible removed if necessary. If you have to enact fines, go for it. All fine with me. To tell Company A that you have to hire X percent of minorities, period, is a racist program and one that should be discarded.

    Yeah, of course- nobody should be guilty until proven innocent. Although, FYI, in a civil trial it isn't about innocence or guilt and neither side has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The standard is "preponderance of the evidence", which means whoever the jury thinks there is a 51% or more chance is right wins.
    Which shouldn't be difficult if similiar minority applications are being discarded two and a half times as often as for whites.

    I really don't get what your argument is with the Wal-Marts. Can you explain in more detail what impact you think that has on our debate?
    It shows you how easy it would be to determine their might be a problem.

    No, information about historical statistics about the races of people they hired is generally not admissible. Meaning they can't even bring it up. It sounds like you agree with me that that should change, right? If so, that's great. I think that would go a long ways towards fixing this stuff.
    It can and is brought up. It's why charges are made many times.

    Abercrombie & Fitch has a well-documented mission of selling its idea of youthful physical perfection, from the Bruce Weber ad campaigns to the employees that fit its ideal of American beauty. The company conceded that that ideal didn't include black, Hispanic, and Asian employees in 2004 when it paid $40 million to employees and job applicants of those demographics to settle a class-action federal discrimination lawsuit. They had been accused of "engaging in recruiting and hiring practices that exclude minorities and adopting a virtually all-white marketing campaign."

    $40 million based upon past hiring practices.

    American Beauty: A Brief History Of Abercrombie's Hiring Practices

    By "CBC" do you mean the black caucus in Congress? If so, they aren't an employer, so none of this would apply to them. Are you saying they're a racist organization? If so, that's some really crazy talk.
    LOL, they only allow blacks to join. White? Not welcomes. Hispanic? Not welcomed. Asian? Not welcomed. That is racism. Not just racism but the most blatent disgusting form of racism. It just shows that your concerns are not about racism. If it's wrong, it's wrong, period.
    Last edited by 1Perry; 09-03-11 at 03:05 PM.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Explain. How do you think that happens? Is this just the thing where right wingers claim that by trying to solve a problem you draw attention to it and hence make it more real? That's just a silly right wing blanket excuse for not doing anything about anything, not a real argument. Obviously black people, like everybody else, are fully aware of racial discrimination. How could they not be? They encounter it personally...



    How about lets hold off on that discussion until a black person has the same odds of getting an interview as a white person with the exact same qualifications. Until then it is objectively broken, right?
    Complete bull****

    If you happen to be a white male you WILL be discriminated against. In the academic environment it's politically incorrect to be a white male. You will have to attend mandatory seminars and training designed to make you feel guilty. It's a ****ed up deal, but colleges and universities seem to get away with things like that. I don't know why. In the business world, it's kind of funny. If things are going well and your company is fat and happy, "Diversity" will end up becoming a tangible force in the workplace. In a sort of orgy of reverse discrimination, grossly unqualified people will be hired and promoted based on gender and skin color. Then if things go badly, the pendulum swings the other way.


    That means that people who are "protected classes" can get away with just about anything they want to at work.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    It should be enforced. Period. Problem is, we should be charging companies that hire based upon AA as that is discriminating based upon race.
    AA doesn't give any special protection for discrimination. All it does is allow companies to hire a member of an under represented group over members of the over represented group if they are equally qualified. But, if a company goes beyond that and discriminates on the basis of race under the banner of AA they can be sued just like anybody else. In fact they are. Constantly. By tea baggers.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Sorry, AA says that you must hire the less qualified.
    False. AA says that you can opt to hire a member of an under represented group over a member of an over represented group, but only if they are equally qualified.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    It can and is brought up. It's why charges are made many times. A company has a history of not hiring minorities.

    Abercrombie & Fitch has a well-documented mission of selling its idea of youthful physical perfection, from the Bruce Weber ad campaigns to the employees that fit its ideal of American beauty. The company conceded that that ideal didn't include black, Hispanic, and Asian employees in 2004 when it paid $40 million to employees and job applicants of those demographics to settle a class-action federal discrimination lawsuit. They had been accused of "engaging in recruiting and hiring practices that exclude minorities and adopting a virtually all-white marketing campaign."

    $40 million based upon past hiring practices.
    Certainly a pattern of discrimination can be brought up, but you can't just show stats that they don't hire enough black people or whatever. That example is about the CEO flat out saying that they discriminate in their hiring. That certainly is admissible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    LOL, they only allow blacks to join. White? Not welcomes. Hispanic? Not welcomed. Asian? Not welcomed. That is racism. Not just racism but the most blatent disgusting form of racism. It just shows that your concerns are not about racism. If it's wrong, it's wrong, period.
    Are you serious about this one? You are mad that there aren't white people in the congressional black caucus? Seriously? That has got to be one of the dumbest things to have a hissy fit about I've heard in a while...

    I assume your issue is the tired old "what would people say if there was a congressional white caucus", right? Well, that argument is obviously silly. 87% of Congress is white. If there are issues of concern to white people, those are being dealt with all the time by the overwhelming majority of Congresspeople. But if there are issues that are only of concern to black people, those aren't necessarily on the radar for the Congress as a whole, so they need a special group to consider them. They aren't parallel at all.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    If you happen to be a white male you WILL be discriminated against.
    Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    In the academic environment it's politically incorrect to be a white male. You will have to attend mandatory seminars and training designed to make you feel guilty. It's a ****ed up deal, but colleges and universities seem to get away with things like that. I don't know why. In the business world, it's kind of funny. If things are going well and your company is fat and happy, "Diversity" will end up becoming a tangible force in the workplace. In a sort of orgy of reverse discrimination, grossly unqualified people will be hired and promoted based on gender and skin color. Then if things go badly, the pendulum swings the other way.

    That means that people who are "protected classes" can get away with just about anything they want to at work.
    Honestly, this is just a wild eyed white supremacist rant... Obviously none of those things are remotely true.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?
    Actually you are the one wrong. They are less likely to get the job because they are less likely to have the skills needed. What happens is people don't want to hire them forced are to hire. The problem you have is two fold, one the wages are too high and two the law doesn't actually force enough of them in. The first problem hurts more than it otherwise would and the second one just puts a stopper on the discrimination.
    Last edited by Henrin; 09-03-11 at 03:31 PM.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    AA doesn't give any special protection for discrimination. All it does is allow companies to hire a member of an under represented group over members of the over represented group if they are equally qualified. But, if a company goes beyond that and discriminates on the basis of race under the banner of AA they can be sued just like anybody else. In fact they are. Constantly. By tea baggers.
    Not true. You do NOT have to pass regulation what would allow a company to hire an equally qualified minority. Do you have any idea how far out on the limb you are here? Really, we have to pass laws to allow companies to hire equally qualified minorities? What, was it illegal before?

    False. AA says that you can opt to hire a member of an under represented group over a member of an over represented group, but only if they are equally qualified.
    And if you decide not to?

    Certainly a pattern of discrimination can be brought up, but you can't just show stats that they don't hire enough black people or whatever. That example is about the CEO flat out saying that they discriminate in their hiring. That certainly is admissible.
    I can see that we are at the end of the discussion. When you can no longer discuss things honestly, it's time to end. The article states that they used past hiring practices.

    Are you serious about this one? You are mad that there aren't white people in the congressional black caucus? Seriously? That has got to be one of the dumbest things to have a hissy fit about I've heard in a while...
    It's wrong because they wil NOT allow whites in. It makes no difference if none join, they are NOT allowed to join. They have tried. They have been told "no" you are not black. You know that though but you have no where left to go but with a dishonest arguement.

    I assume your issue is the tired old "what would people say if there was a congressional white caucus", right? Well, that argument is obviously silly. 87% of Congress is white. If there are issues of concern to white people, those are being dealt with all the time by the overwhelming majority of Congresspeople. But if there are issues that are only of concern to black people, those aren't necessarily on the radar for the Congress as a whole, so they need a special group to consider them. They aren't parallel at all.
    Ah yes, a Congressional White COngress would be wrong. You are the reason "RACIST" has become a punchline. You make is so obvious that it's not about racism but about politics. That's really, I don't know, there really isn't a word strong enough for that position.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Actually you are the one wrong. They are less likely to get the job because they are less likely to have the skills needed.
    Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Not true. You do NOT have to pass regulation what would allow a company to hire an equally qualified minority. Do you have any idea how far out on the limb you are here? Really, we have to pass laws to allow companies to hire equally qualified minorities? What, was it illegal before?
    Yeah, to hire on the basis of race, even an equally qualified person, could potentially be seen as discrimination, so that at least clarifies that it isn't. The main thing AA does is to require federal contractors and government departments to report their stats and give explanations it they're way out of whack.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    And if you decide not to?
    Nothing happens. All AA forbids is discriminating against an under represented group.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I can see that we are at the end of the discussion. When you can no longer discuss things honestly, it's time to end. The article states that they used past hiring practices.
    Read the article. It quotes the CEO talking about their hiring practices. Nothing about statistical evidence being used in court in there unless I missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    It's wrong because they wil NOT allow whites in. It makes no difference if none join, they are NOT allowed to join. They have tried. They have been told "no" you are not black. You know that though but you have no where left to go but with a dishonest arguement.

    Ah yes, a Congressional White COngress would be wrong. You are the reason "RACIST" has become a punchline. You make is so obvious that it's not about racism but about politics. That's really, I don't know, there really isn't a word strong enough for that position.
    I think I clearly explained why it is different and you don't seem to have a response. If you come up with one, I'm happy to debate it.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, to hire on the basis of race, even an equally qualified person, could potentially be seen as discrimination, so that at least clarifies that it isn't. The main thing AA does is to require federal contractors and government departments to report their stats and give explanations it they're way out of whack.
    Bull ****

    Nothing happens. All AA forbids is discriminating against an under represented group.
    Bull ****. What has happened is when a someone has an absolutely valid reason to exclude certain people they are forced to lower their standards to accept those they rightfully excluded before.

    Read the article. It quotes the CEO talking about their hiring practices. Nothing about statistical evidence being used in court in there unless I missed it.
    They had been accused of "engaging in recruiting and hiring practices that exclude minorities and adopting a virtually all-white marketing campaign."


    Not that you actually care.

    I think I clearly explained why it is different and you don't seem to have a response. If you come up with one, I'm happy to debate it.
    There is nothing to debate. You support institutionalized racism. Racist are pretty low on the tree of humanity.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?
    Got me, I missed that.

    Where is your data coming from anyway? What are the chances they have the exact same resume? I would guess damn near zero.

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