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Thread: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's you, but I don't think you can see it. Keep using the word nigger and complaining that others utilize context to cover their outward displays of racism.
    When you push this to the outer edges of absurdity, its really hard to take anything you say seriously. If you do not see the difference, it must be due to an extreme case of willful ideologically imposed blindness.
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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When you push this to the outer edges of absurdity, its really hard to take anything you say seriously. If you do not see the difference, it must be due to an extreme case of willful ideologically imposed blindness.
    It's like you can see it, but you can't. Weird. Anyway, I'm an ecocentric internationalist who ascribes to neither political nor religious ideology. See sig and lean, and my visitor's messeges for basic CV.

    Who's ideologially blind?
    Last edited by ecofarm; 09-03-11 at 09:57 AM.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's like you can see it, but you can't. Weird. Anyway, I'm an ecocentric internationalist who ascribes to neither political nor religious ideology. See sig and lean, and my visitor's messeges for basic CV.

    Who's ideologially blind?
    Whatever the problem is its preventing you from intentionally reading what I wrote and understanding it.

    I see no reason why you continue to defend that racist T shirt.
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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, not at all. We live in a country beset by racism and racial inequality.
    "Beset by racism"? I think your description is a little extreme for the actual situation in the USA. I understand that you live in SF, where even the ownership of a pet is under scrutiny as slavery, but come on now, Beset? Explain.

    A person has three options. They can support racism, they can oppose racism, or they can just try to ignore the whole thing.
    I think I am starting to see the problem with your view of the problem in this country....You see it as an all or nothing, or ignorant situation...Such totality in your thinking I think skews your view of the real causes of racism that exists.

    What you mean when you say they don't care about race is that they try to ignore the whole thing.
    Now you read minds as well...Now that is talent.

    The opposite of racism would be fighting against racism, which tea party types steadfastly resist.
    I would have to say that you really don't understand the Tea Party at all then. Tea Party is about taxation, not race. Also, one thing to fight racism is to not acknowledge it is even construct within your daily life. See, I would say that it is libs like you that I think need to constantly promote a problem like racism, and never let it totally die, in order to have a wedge issue to smear your opponent with. When in reality that you won't let racism die makes you the racist.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Ok, then what are we debating about?
    My position is to enforce our laws, not to create and accept racist groups and programs. The rest of your post really doesn't matter as long as we can not get past that basic position.

    There are two ways you can enforce the civil rights act. Option 1 is individual lawsuits. The problem with this approach is that it is almost impossible to prove in any but the most overt situations. Almost all cases where somebody wins the defendant admitted flat out that they were discriminating. Short of that how would anybody prove what was going on in their heads? The more realistic enforcement mechanism is affirmative action. It takes a statistical approach. The way it currently works is that government contractors and government offices need to report the percentages of people from various races they hire. If their numbers are way off, they are asked to provide an explanation. Usually the explanation is that they got fewer qualified applicants from the under-represented race. There is no investigation of their explanation usually. If they can't explain it or their explanation seems to be ridiculous then they are required to take steps to address the discrimination. Usually that means conducting a training for their hiring managers encouraging them not to discriminate. In theory, if a company refuses to take any steps to address it, it can go further to the point where they would lose government contracts and face a fine. To my knowledge, that has only happened once in US history. It was a big factory that built things for the government that had an explicit policy to only hire whites and refused to eliminate the policy...
    It wouldn't be hard to prove in court that whites were getting interviewed at 2 1/2 times the rate of blacks IF that was actually happening and you were forced to defend that.

    Your position is that you MUST hire a certain portion based only on their race or sex not on their qualifications. You are saying that if I go to court and I show that whites were high school graduates at 2 1/2 times the rate of others, I still must hire the others.

    So, not exactly strict enforcement at present. I would support strict enforcement. For example, I think we should ramp up the investigation of companies that are way out of whack with the norms for their industries and we should reduce the burden of proof for discrimination suits by allowing plaintiffs to use statistical evidence that a company has a history of not hiring members of their group. You say you don't have a problem with strict enforcement, but I suspect you aren't on board with that. Or are you?
    I disagree that we do NOT do that. We indeed do. I also disagree that guilty until proven innocent is absolutely the right way to go about things. If a company is in an area that has say a 45% minority population and the company has a 10% minority workforce they should get a chance to explain. I beleve that if it was a case where as I said, only 10% of the minority apps were college grads, the problem is with society, not with the business. If a legit reason can not be shown then I support intervention. (outside of mom and pop businesses and other similiar cases). Chinese and Mexican restuarants are always going to be off from the areas norm. Nothing wrong with that.

    Tons of jobs people apply by dropping off an application or resume. But regardless, I don't see how submitting it online would change anything, it would just mean they would be discriminated against in the interview instead of before the interview, but that doesn't help anybody. Maybe it would make it harder to study...
    It wouldn't at all. If Wal-Mart has a 10% minority workforce in an area that is 45% minority it's not so tough to decide that maybe someone needs to ask why. Why is this so tough to understand?

    In order to win a discrimination suit you need to prove that the individual who didn't hire you did it because of your race. If they just made a dumb decision or something, that isn't illegal. And, generally, you can't introduce statistics about past hiring tendencies. That's considered prejudicial and usually it is not allowed.
    No you don't. Now if there was one case, you aren't going to be able to prove much. If there is a history of not hiring minorities it's not tough to prove. As I said, simply numbers will show if there need to be questions asked or not. I fully agree with investigating certain places that hire people but in no way can I support racist policies developed by the government.

    I'll ask again though.....why is it that Wal-Mart must be non discriminatory but the CBC doesn't have to be? How do you allow an outright racist organization tell others they can not be as racist as they are?
    Last edited by 1Perry; 09-03-11 at 10:36 AM.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, not at all. We live in a country beset by racism and racial inequality.
    BS: we live in a country marked by high racial inequality due mostly to the choices that our different subcultures make. Everyone so eager to accuse the Dominant White Culture of Racially Holding Back Others due to blacks and hispanics inferior comparative performance skips entirely over the superior performance of Asians. Were the dominant culture actually racist it would continue to hold them back, as it used to. Instead, Asian immigrants continue to have nuclear families, impart strong ethical values centered around respect for others and the importance of education and having a work ethic, and are outperforming every other ethnic group, largely to the degree that said groups stick to those trends. Racism as a major leading Issue Of Our Times is (thankfully) a thing of the past (for now).

    A person has three options. They can support racism, they can oppose racism, or they can just try to ignore the whole thing. What you mean when you say they don't care about race is that they try to ignore the whole thing. The opposite of racism would be fighting against racism, which tea party types steadfastly resist.
    fighting racism with different racism remains racism. as for me and mine and the Tea Party, we'll judge by the content of their character, thanks. good luck with your color-of-their-skin thing.



    but it sounds like even you would agree that the "the Tea Party wants to lynch black people" line is crap.
    Last edited by cpwill; 09-03-11 at 10:32 AM.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    "Beset by racism"? I think your description is a little extreme for the actual situation in the USA. I understand that you live in SF, where even the ownership of a pet is under scrutiny as slavery, but come on now, Beset? Explain.
    In the US today if a white person and a black person both apply for the same job with the exact same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. Think back through your life. Take out 3 of every 5 jobs you've gotten. Where would you be? On welfare? A criminal? Would your family still be intact? What medical or dental problems have you or your family had that you wouldn't have been able to afford to treat? Would you have an elderly parent living with you because you/they couldn't afford a retirement home? Where would you live? Where you do today or a ghetto? What kind of school would your kids have access to there? How much harder would it be to get your next job with those huge gaps in your resume? Etc. Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as beset.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I think I am starting to see the problem with your view of the problem in this country....You see it as an all or nothing, or ignorant situation...Such totality in your thinking I think skews your view of the real causes of racism that exists.
    No, I don't see it as all or nothing. Somebody could oppose racism, but just a little bit, or they could oppose it vigorously. Somebody could support it in one situation and oppose it in others, etc. The point I am trying to make is that ignoring it is not opposing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I would have to say that you really don't understand the Tea Party at all then. Tea Party is about taxation, not race.
    When a politician gets elected they can't just take on responsibility for one tiny area of policy making, they make policy, or fail to make policy, about everything, so you can't just ignore their positions on all issues but one.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Also, one thing to fight racism is to not acknowledge it is even construct within your daily life. See, I would say that it is libs like you that I think need to constantly promote a problem like racism, and never let it totally die, in order to have a wedge issue to smear your opponent with. When in reality that you won't let racism die makes you the racist.
    I think the fundamental gap is that the right seems to see racism as something that should be left to die on its own and the left sees it as something that needs to be extinguished. I don't see any evidence of it dying off on its own, so I don't see how that is a viable approach.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    My position is to enforce our laws, not to create and accept racist groups and programs. The rest of your post really doesn't matter as long as we can not get past that basic position.
    Our laws say that a business can't discriminate on the basis of race. AA and discrimination suits are attempts to enforce that. So the question is, how strong should that enforcement be?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    It wouldn't be hard to prove in court that whites were getting interviewed at 2 1/2 times the rate of blacks IF that was actually happening and you were forced to defend that.

    Your position is that you MUST hire a certain portion based only on their race or sex not on their qualifications. You are saying that if I go to court and I show that whites were high school graduates at 2 1/2 times the rate of others, I still must hire the others.
    No, I think you're mixing up the details. An equally qualified white gets 2.4 times as many interviews as an equally qualified black. On average, black applicants are less qualified, so the actual ratio of interviews given would be much higher. I am not arguing that anybody should hire a less qualified person. I am arguing that the goal needs to be for equally qualified people to have an equal chance regardless of their race.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I also disagree that guilty until proven innocent is absolutely the right way to go about things. If a company is in an area that has say a 45% minority population and the company has a 10% minority workforce they should get a chance to explain. I beleve that if it was a case where as I said, only 10% of the minority apps were college grads, the problem is with society, not with the business. If a legit reason can not be shown then I support intervention. (outside of mom and pop businesses and other similiar cases). Chinese and Mexican restuarants are always going to be off from the areas norm. Nothing wrong with that.
    Yeah, of course- nobody should be guilty until proven innocent. Although, FYI, in a civil trial it isn't about innocence or guilt and neither side has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. The standard is "preponderance of the evidence", which means whoever the jury thinks there is a 51% or more chance is right wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    It wouldn't at all. If Wal-Mart has a 10% minority workforce in an area that is 45% minority it's not so tough to decide that maybe someone needs to ask why. Why is this so tough to understand?
    I really don't get what your argument is with the Wal-Marts. Can you explain in more detail what impact you think that has on our debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    No you don't. Now if there was one case, you aren't going to be able to prove much. If there is a history of not hiring minorities it's not tough to prove. As I said, simply numbers will show if there need to be questions asked or not. I fully agree with investigating certain places that hire people but in no way can I support racist policies developed by the government.
    No, information about historical statistics about the races of people they hired is generally not admissible. Meaning they can't even bring it up. It sounds like you agree with me that that should change, right? If so, that's great. I think that would go a long ways towards fixing this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I'll ask again though.....why is it that Wal-Mart must be non discriminatory but the CBC doesn't have to be? How do you allow an outright racist organization tell others they can not be as racist as they are?
    By "CBC" do you mean the black caucus in Congress? If so, they aren't an employer, so none of this would apply to them. Are you saying they're a racist organization? If so, that's some really crazy talk.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    In the US today if a white person and a black person both apply for the same job with the exact same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview
    yup, and the asian guy is more likely to get the job than the white guy, and he's also more likely to be successful at it (which is perhaps why he is more likely to get it in the first place). when folks start worrying about how the Korean Man is Holding White Folk Down, i'll at least be willing to give them credit for consistency.

    Think back through your life. Take out 3 of every 5 jobs you've gotten.
    this line of reasoning is one giant "does not follow", but this is worth especially noting. even the state you bring up is not jobs but interviews.


    want to know what's really hurting blacks? single parenthood and a failed approach to education. let's focus on solving that before we worry about interview parity.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    BS: we live in a country marked by high racial inequality due mostly to the choices that our different subcultures make. Everyone so eager to accuse the Dominant White Culture of Racially Holding Back Others due to blacks and hispanics inferior comparative performance skips entirely over the superior performance of Asians. Were the dominant culture actually racist it would continue to hold them back, as it used to. Instead, Asian immigrants continue to have nuclear families, impart strong ethical values centered around respect for others and the importance of education and having a work ethic, and are outperforming every other ethnic group, largely to the degree that said groups stick to those trends. Racism as a major leading Issue Of Our Times is (thankfully) a thing of the past (for now).
    If a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times as likely to get an interview. So, it clearly isn't just based on actual performance. What it is is people judging individuals based on the color of their skin- racism. Maybe the average performance of a black person is lower for obvious historical reasons, so we would expect employers to hire less black people because they tend to be less qualified. But what this study tells us is that they go way beyond that and even when a black applicant is equally qualified, they still don't hire them. They assume that they will not perform because of the color of their skin. That is what racism is.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    but it sounds like even you would agree that the "the Tea Party wants to lynch black people" line is crap.
    Yeah I would.

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