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Thread: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    Why do you refer to the Jim Crow laws and say it was discrimination against an entire race when the laws were only enacted in the southern states? Do you think every black in the country lived in the south?
    Easy!! All that reality at once will cause their heads to explode.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    It might tell you something else...but it may not be something you want to admit. It MIGHT tell you that there is a reason for that discrimination and that reason MAY have something to do with the significant numbers (but still a minority) within that discriminated group that has created a negative hiring environment for other qualified individuals within the same racial group. Where a black employer is more likely to hire a white employee, it MIGHT not mean that employer is an institutionalized racist, but that in fact the employer might have negative experiences with other employees and be disinclined to hire another black applicant based on prior experiences.
    That's pretty much the definition of racism. Attributing negative characteristics one perceives one person to have to other members of that race.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Even if a person works in an environment where they are not discriminated against- which of course there are many of- they still live in the world. It would be impossible to be oblivious to it. Frankly even when a white person pretends they seriously are unaware of racial discrimination I find that very, very, hard to believe, but a black person that is unaware of it? No way.



    Yes. I've participated in somewhere around 100 hiring committees over the years. Out of those maybe 6 candidates have been black. Every single one of those times, at least one person on the committee said something along the lines of "I just don't think they'd fit into the corporate culture" or had "concerns about professionalism" or similar. I don't think I remember either of those "issues" being raised about a white applicant ever. I doubt the people reacting that way are conscious of how the applicant's race is affecting their perception of the applicant. Probably conscious racial discrimination is very rare in all types of jobs, but the scientific studies of the question have all found that it occurs nonetheless. Hiring is extraordinarily subjective. For example, height turns out to be a huge factor in hiring decisions, although obviously nobody consciously thinks "I want to hire this applicant over the others because he is taller". Same deal with race.
    Talking about disbelief. Not a single white candidate was questioned? Not even by you?

    Sounds like someone's not being exactly honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's pretty much the definition of racism. Attributing negative characteristics one perceives one person to have to other members of that race.
    That purdy much makes Liberals the most racist mother****ers on the face of the Earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Talking about disbelief. Not a single white candidate was questioned? Not even by you?

    Sounds like someone's not being exactly honest.
    No, I'm not saying that no white applicants were questioned. I'm saying that there are particular types of criticism that people are far more likely to level against black applicants. Vague concerns about "fitting in", cultural concerns, vague worries about professionalism...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That purdy much makes Liberals the most racist mother****ers on the face of the Earth.
    That's going to require some explanation.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Anytime you vote for someone because of their ethnicity, not because of their qualifications that make the best for the job, or when you consider their ethnicity to trump all other aspects, then it is racist. What would you call it if I said I was voting for Perry because he's white and Obama is black, and their other differences don't matter? Would you call that racist




    Racism between Black and Hispanic. However much exists between Black and White, the gulf between Hispanic and Black is far worse. The Hispanics won't vote for Obama in a large block, both because of their dislike and distrust of Blacks, and because they are repelled by Obama's racism as well.

    Racism that isn't well publicized
    On that note, as I live in Mexico, I have never, and I mean never, talked to anybody here that was an Obama supporter, and I asked. Most told me he was not qualified for the job as he had never ran anything in his life. They saw right through him. Why didn't the citizens of the US?

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    No, I'm not saying that no white applicants were questioned. I'm saying that there are particular types of criticism that people are far more likely to level against black applicants. Vague concerns about "fitting in", cultural concerns, vague worries about professionalism...
    Probably had more to do with the applicants than the interveiwers.


    That's going to require some explanation.
    Your own words explain more than I ever could. After all, you don't believe I'm black, because I don't think the way that you think black people should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    double posted that one
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Sadly, that just is not true. In fact, if a white person and a black person apply for exactly the same job with exactly the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get called back for an interview. As a whole the system is still overwhelmingly biased against black people and in favor of white people.

    Discrimination in a Low-Wage Labor Market: A Field Experiment by Devah Pager, Bruce Western, Bart Bonikowski :: SSRN
    I've now read this paper. The unaddressed issue that pervades the experiment is why the bias exists. There are a number of flaws in the experimental design but I'm not interested in dissecting them. The bias question is more interesting to me.

    The researchers make note of previous studies. Here is one:


    Hiring decisions are influenced by a complex range of factors, racial attitudes being only one. The stated preferences of employers, then, leave uncertain the degree to which negative attitudes about blacks translate into active forms of discrimination.

    Indeed, other research focusing on wages rather than employment reports even less evidence of contemporary discrimination. Derek Neal and William Johnson (1996), for example, estimate wage differences between white, black, and Latino young men. They find that two-thirds of the black-white gap in wages in 1990-1991 can be explained by race differences in cognitive test scores measured 11 years earlier; test scores fully explain wage differences between whites and Latinos.


    This factor was not controlled for in this experiment. We don't know how employers were perceiving the white, black and latino job applicants in terms of intelligence and ability to problem solve on the job. The research show that there is no wage discrimination between whites and latinos when IQ is controlled for and though this study shows that there is some variance in wages between blacks and whites of the same IQ, two other, large sample size multi-year studies showed that the wage variance disappeared between whites and blacks when IQ is controlled.

    This sets up an interesting question. Is the employer market divided between those who discriminate at the point of hiring or does the discrimination continue even after hiring. This wage data clearly suggests that there is no wage discrimination when IQ is controlled for - that seems like a pretty non-discriminatory environment to me. Now how likely is it that every black and latino who took part in these large wage-IQ studies just managed to be working for employers who do not discriminate at the point of hiring? I think that such an outcome would be an astounding roll of the dice.

    So we're still left with a world where employers don't discriminate against existing employees but there could exist some employers who do discriminate against applicants in the interview stage. Maybe, maybe not.


    Second, low-wage labor markets today are characterized by increasing heterogeneity of the urban minority work force, with low-skill African American workers now more likely to compete with other minority groupsólow-skill Latino workers, in particular. Interviews with employers in Los Angeles and Chicago suggest consistent preferences for Latinos over African Americans, with Latino workers viewed as more pliant, reliable, and hard-working (Waldinger & Lichter, 2003; Kirschenman & Neckerman, 1991). Given these racial preferences among employers, growing competition within the low-wage labor market may leave black men vulnerable to discrimination relative not only to whites, but increasingly from Latinos as well.


    And this is a huge gaping hole in the whole discrimination debate. Are employers acting rationally when they employ discrimination if they are acting on stereotypes which are accurate representations of group-level behavior. This paper doesn't have anything to say about whether employer perceptions on Latinos being more "pliant, reliable and hard-working" are accurate. All three attributes are desired by employers. There are costs that fall on an employer when he has to deal with an employee who is not performing to par. The surest way to avoid incurring such costs is to not hire employees who perform at sub-par levels. How can an employer determine what an employee will do in the future? He can't. He can guess though. It's quite likely that guesses are based on past experience and the observations of what is happening in other workplaces.

    The problem this situation creates is that it imposes costs on the individual for factors that are not under the individual's control. It's quite likely that a Latino job applicant is going to be more reliable and more pliable and more hard working than an African American job applicant but this is not assured. On the other side of the coin are the interests of the employer - he cannot have perfect information. The more thorough the information he collects the more costly it becomes for him. How much duty does he owe to individual applicants to be fair and judge them on their own merits when the costs of wrong bets fall almost entirely on him?

    If the stereotype is accurate, then can we, or should we, fault the employer for acting in his self-interest by observing the stereotype. If the stereotype is accurate and it imposes costs on black applicants, then how should we apportion blame between the employers and black culture and the behavior of the individual blacks who give basis to the stereotype?

    What academic studies seek to do is create conditions where all factors are controlled so that a relationship between the factors that are the focus of the study can be examined. This study doesn't quite meet that threshold because it leaves hanging in the air the issue of how employers view white, Latino and black workers in terms of what they will do for the employer in terms of working hard, being reliable and not causing trouble at work.

    So where does this leave us? Well, it doesn't deliver the Holy Grail that liberals think it does. It's kind of like looking at present wage disparity between whites and blacks and assuming that it is caused by discrimination when in fact it reflects differing levels of intelligence between the two groups. This study tells us that discrimination occurs, but not why. Is it rational discrimination which works to the employer's interests or is there non-rational discrimination taking place.

    In terms of remedy, if there is rational discrimination taking place then I find it difficult to tell employers that they have to act in an irrational manner and discount signals which guide them in minimizing costs and disruptions in their workplace. The solution to this problem is to be found in the black community repairing its reputation by developing better work habits so that employers come to see blacks as being the equal of Latinos and whites when it comes to reliability, agreeableness and willingness to work hard.

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    Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I doubt that as many white applicants apply for black or hispanic owned businesses. Trying to guesstimate this kind of thing based on individual experiences is like trying to figure out the distance to the moon by eyeballing it.

    That said, I'm mostly just speculating based on studies in other areas that have found equal discrimination. For example, black cops discriminate against black suspects just as much as white cops do. I don't know of an employment discrimination study that addresses that question.



    That would tell me that racism gets internalized. But everybody already knew that.
    This is the problem with people that think of race first before anything else.

    If I am looking for a job, why do I care who owns it? Are you saying white people won't work for a minority business owner from some deep seated racism in them?

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